My first experience with an Ultra... disappointing :(

viabcroce

Experienced
Hi all,

first post here.

Since I first heard of the Axe FX I've been very interested in it. I've been following this forum since before AxeII was released, and I've read a real lot of it as well as other forums.

I've heard many good sounds (and many bad ones) from the clips on the Net, so I was positive I could get something good from an Axe. Two days ago I had my first opportunity to put my hands on an Ultra (v.11). It was a private sale, and while the owner was demonstrating some patches and sounds I heard something quite appealing, even though I couldn't say it was more appealing to me than my Lonestar Special ;) The sound was reproduced through a couple of 3,500 € (each) Yamaha studio monitors.

Problems started when I myself played the Axe. If there's one guitar sound which amazes me is a clean, neck-HB sound from an LP (or similar guitars) through a valve amp with crancked mids, medium-to-low gain and and bass, tamed highs and quite high master. I thought to myself, had I been able to replicate that sound, that would proof I'd be able to make the Axe sound good for all other patches.

Well, there was no way for me to even get close to my favourite sound. I choose a patch with an amp and a cab only. The guitar I used for the test was LP/PRS-like with ALNICO HBs. The sound was always too much "hi-fi", like through a home stereo system. Operating the tonestack did not change the intrinsic quality of sound. I tried to work with several advanced parameters as well (hereby including GEQ), but there seemed to be a strong "hi-fi DNA" which could be only tamed but not really got rid of. And no punch. I also tried several amps and cabs, w/ and w/o compressor. Have you ever played your guitar through a stereo or a dry mixer? :(

As a side note, I have to add that the unit sounded better when the owner played it; I believe this may have also to do with the sound-vs-feeling issue (and with him being accustomed and more comfortable with the unit).
The FRFR-vs-guitar cab aspect should be taken into consideration as well: I'm not accustomed to listen to a FRFR rig. But my point is, it should be anyway able to re-create a realistic sound: I'm not sure I'm willing to "get accustomed" to a sound hence convincing myself it sounds good... I'd rather want the machine to convince me :mrgreen

I was somewhat aware I was listening to something new I would need time to get accustomed to. So I took my time, and on Wednesday I'm going to try another unit (no Yamaha this time), after some days of meditations and hopefully some good advises from you guys. :)

There must have been something wrong in my attempts, or in my approach; I can't believe that with a load o thousands pages of enthusiastic reviews, opinions, praises this unit fails in its basic task: reproducing a clean LP-like neck PU! Too high an expectation from my side maybe? :?

Is it possible I won't be able to get a realistic sound from the Axe until I use a cab? If this is true, I wouldn't really understand all the FRFR enthusiastic (unless they're only speaking of processed sounds). But, after my long experience as a forum reader, I'd say this is not the case. I remember, BTW, a clip on the Tube where a very young and skilled guitarist played with a magnificent clean sound something smooth jazz-fusion-style. I'm sorry I was not able to find the clip...

I'm strongly attracted by the AxeFx concept, but I'm not sure I'm ready to trade off when it comes to sound and feeling, which is a strong part of the reason why I love playing guitar, much more important than versatility, routing possibilities and whatever.

I'd be really happy to receive some advises from you guys, to try and take the best out of my next Ultra close encounter. Would you address me to some amp, cab, setting (both for FRFR and cab: I'm taking my 2x12 Dragoon with me this time) able to unveil AxeFx potential to me?

Thanks a lot for you time!

Gianfranco
 
Last edited:
Sorry to hear you didn't dig it at first, but there's a LOT of variables to be considered, so give it some time and experiment......a lot of players actually have been known to use guitar cabs/speakers and have claimed that it is the best way to run the axe. Others have found that golden sound with FRFR. Keep in mind also that the axe sounds VERY different thru different PAs/cabs/FRFR systems/mixers/monitors etc, so experiment with some different boxes and I'm almost sure you'll find a sound that you like.

Personally, I've never been quite able to get that lonestar clean/mildly driven sound as well as the lonestar itself, but cliff has been trying out some lonestar-type sounds/models in the axe II, so hopefully us ultra users get one too if he releases it....cuz I think the lonestar has a really distinct sound, and without an actual sim, it might be hard to reproduce that tone.


You might also want to try something like the usa clean sim with say the greenback cab sim, that should give you a really thick warm clean sound with a lot of mids. You may also want to check the global settings and try turning on the power amp sims on/off, that makes a big difference as well. Try also adding a tube preamp amp sim just before the main amp sim, and see if it fattens up the tone to your liking.

Don't give up just yet, most users have to switch up stuff quite a bit to finally get those golden sounds, so be patient, there's a lot to try yet ;)
 
Many thanks jon for your encouragement X)
My possibilities to try an Ultra are limited to the (very few) classified ads here in Italy (I believe Italian Axe owners sum up to a dozen or the like). Unless I move for some days to the seller's place I'll have not more than a few hours to do my tests. I'm sure he'd let me go again for some times, but it's a 2 hour drive... in a word, it's not like having it at home and experiments are limited to the on-the-spot available hardware.

Coming to the point, it's not like the sound I got was imitating some other amp than the LS Special... (which, BTW, is a different beast than the standard LS) it sounded like through a home hi-fi, like no amp.

I'm aware variables involved here are a lot, that's why I'm asking some help from more expert users: had it been a real amp, I'd have just rejected (?) it...

Thanks for your hint about the usa clean sim with the greenback, I'll try it for sure! Very appreciated X)
 
Hi Prosvetlen,

I tried the unit via a couple of quite expensive Yamaha studio monitors: it's the setup currently used by current owner.
 
Axefx do have a stiffer sound than Lonestar. I do not love lonestar, I have to admit. Not my kind of sound. I prefer Axefx because lonestar seems to mess with my attack... too "loose" and warm sounding.
Try different amp model, scroll thru each amp and cab. I dont' agree with the claim "it can soun exactly like x", but for sure it is capable of some light crunchy tone... ;)

Ciao Gian! :)
 
Ciao bello ;D

Nice to meet you here!

As I was trying to point out, the problem is not that I wasn't able to get a LS Special (BTW, it's different from LS) sound: it's rather that it sounded hi-fi-esque.

Though I've never owned an AxeFx, I'm expert enough not to quest for a perfect replication of a sound: but I definitely want it to feel guitar and not home stereo.

Too bad we live so far from each other, I'd have liked to spend some time with you and your Standard!

Hope I'll be able to find the key to a realistic amp sound next Wednesday! ;)
 
hmmmm.....I think I get you now.....might also want to turn off any mic sims.....I just did it to test and it does remove a lot of that 'hi-fi' sound......gets you closer to a cab sound. I also normally put up some cab 'drive' to get more of that traditional cab sound. These are found in the cab block (select it and press edit, and page < or > to get these parameters.
another thing you might want to do is go into the advanced parameters in the amp block, and use a high cut at about 8K, as well as adjust the 'warmth' and 'thump'

Maybe some of the more experienced users might have some suggestions for you, but I think if you use a combination of all of the above suggestions (might want to write them all down for when you go there next) you should get a sound that resembles a traditional sound. Other than that, you might just have to use a real cab....and you will almost certainly get that sound to where you like it ;)
 
it's rather that it sounded hi-fi-esque.
... but I definitely want it to feel guitar and not home stereo.
1) Play at the same volume as the real amp
2) Cut as many bass, mid, high or whaterver are needed
3) axefx seems to me more hi-fi sounding than real counterpart, but if take an old plexi, recap it, it will sound more hi-fi too! ;)
4) scroll trhu all amp: lower gain as needed, try master (up compress & warm the sound), match with level; go to cab block, scroll & grab the one you like; back to amp block, tune hi, mid, low & presence; save the best patches you like
5) take all patches you like: fine tune it with advance parameters: damp, sag, B+ caps (lower it to soften the bass & attack); switch on passive presence/depth;

Check (warm side attack) fender style amp, carolann, jtm; on the bright side, trainwreck. Just to name a few.
 
Thank you jon & smilzo for your suggestions! They're much appreciated and will be taken into account ;)

Now that I think of it... I've never read Ultra manual, but IIRC wasn't one of the innovations implemented in the II an automatic impedance match? IOW, shouldn't it be needed (or at least advisable) to properly set Ultra's input according to the plugged instrument? After all, on my last test I always used my own guitar, and the owner his... :eek:

Mhhh... time to download Ultra UG before taking my way to the Axe again :mrgreen
 
That's the last frontier for amp modelers in my opinion.

You are describing what I hear from almost every guitar amp modeler I've used except for (possibly) one.

Since I don't own an AXE FX (yet), I can only assume it is the same thing that I experience when using most software based guitar rigs.

They all seem to do distorted sounds pretty nicely... but the clean tube sounds? Like you said - Hi Fi sounding - too clean and dynamic!

There is one piece of software that does a better job of emulating that clean tube sound to my ears than the rest. And that one is called Vandal. It's made by Magix (German company I believe)

The thing that did it for me was a knob they have called 'amp sag' or it may be named something else (it's on the right hand side of the parameters). It seemed to make the software emulate how tubes 'soften' the attack of the pick or sort of 'glomm' everything together nicely. ('glomm' is a term I use to describe this sound because it sounds similar to what tape does to a final mix - it sort of 'glomms' everything together and mushes it up pleasingly to the ears).

It's totally unlike a compressor, but it could be that Vandal is doing something like that under the hood - I don't know.

But it gets as close to my 65 Super Reverb as anything I've heard. The settings I generally use for my Fender are the following:

Volume 3-7
Bright off
Treble 7
Middle 10
Bass 0

THAT setting along with my Les Paul on the neck pickup with the volume set to 7 (or less) is a sound that is very very hard to duplicate for my ears.

But Vandal gets pretty close.

I'm hoping that the AXE FX will do that also.

L
 
Last edited:
Based on what you have described, I think the Ultra with a power amp and guitar cab(s) would be the ticket. Although FRFR has more versatility, it does not sound the same, or have the same feel as the power amp/guitar cab setup. So far, I'm still preferring the guitar cab results myself, which comes closest to the feel of a real guitar amp setup. As far as matching your "ideal" tone that you described, you almost have to have both setups in the same room and make adjustments to the Axe Fx to dial in the tone. I've tried matching my Marshall from memory, think I have it dialed in, and then turn on the Marshall and realize I'm not even close. With the Marshall there to compare (A/B), I can get much closer (still not 100%).
 
Last edited:
You are describing what I hear from almost every guitar amp modeler I've used except for (possibly) one.
Since I don't own an AXE FX (yet), I can only assume it is the same thing that I experience when using most software based guitar rigs.
They all seem to do distorted sounds pretty nicely... but the clean tube sounds? Like you said - Hi Fi sounding - too clean and dynamic!

Hi Larry, yes, that's the impression I got. The strange thing is that it was so obvious to me, that everyone should have mentioned it in the years... that's why I think there was something strange in the rig :?

There is one piece of software that does a better job of emulating that clean tube sound to my ears than the rest. And that one is called Vandal. It's made by Magix (German company I believe)

Thanks, I'll give it a try :) They also say very very good things of Scuffham S-Gear simulator...

The thing that did it for me was a knob they have called 'amp sag' or it may be named something else (it's on the right hand side of the parameters). It seemed to make the software emulate how tubes 'soften' the attack of the pick or sort of 'glomm' everything together nicely. ('glomm' is a term I use to describe this sound because it sounds similar to what tape does to a final mix - it sort of 'glomms' everything together and mushes it up pleasingly to the ears).

It's totally unlike a compressor, but it could be that Vandal is doing something like that under the hood - I don't know.

But it gets as close to my 65 Super Reverb as anything I've heard.

I'm hoping that the AXE FX will do that also.

Well, the Sag parameter control is not new to the Axe. Of course I can't say anything about how effective it is, or how close it may compare to the Vandal.

Finally, you know, I feel the fascination of a solid piece of hardware... I also bought a real multitrack recorder instead of using a software solution... Alas, let's wait and see...

Thanks for your opinions :)
 
Based on what you have described, I think the Ultra with a power amp and guitar cab(s) would be the ticket. Although FRFR has more versatility, it does not sound the same, or have the same feel as the power amp/guitar cab setup. So far, I'm still preferring the guitar cab results myself, which comes closest to the feel of a real guitar amp setup. As far as matching your "ideal" tone that you described, you almost have to have both setups in the same room and make adjustments to the Axe Fx to dial in the tone. I've tried matching my Marshall from memory, think I have it dialed in, and then turn on the Marshall and realize I'm not even close. With the Marshall there to compare (A/B), I can get much closer (still not 100%).

Hi Axel, I definitely share your thoughts. But I'm not going to take my Lonestar Special head with me anyway for my next test... What I'm after is a realistic tube amp reproduction, and I'm perfectly at ease with a differently-sounding amp... provided it doesn't sound like a hi-fi one!

I'd like to know what FRFR users hear when it comes to clean, unprocessed sounds from their Axes though... :?
 
Last edited:
wasn't one of the innovations implemented in the II an automatic impedance match? IOW, shouldn't it be needed (or at least advisable) to properly set Ultra's input according to the plugged instrument?
Most of the amp has 1Mohm input impedance. That's the input impedance of front input, if I remember right. Stompboxes differs a lot. ;)
One more thought: I was never able to plug into a monitor or mixer/speaker and have the same sound. FRFR helps a bit, eq helps a lot, but always cab impress it mark on sounds. I know my yamaha is very bassy, mackie is bright, verve is a bit boomy. When tweaking, I try to compensate for this. For this reason I choose a monitor, tweak with it, play gig with it. I let the soundman care for PA, and I know it will never be excatly the same (better than traditional guitar amp anyway, so far!). I understand your feeling, but learn to make good patches with unkown monitor it's a very hard task in a few hours... ;)
I enjoy both Masotti, Peters & Fractal. Different taste, but sounds good! ;)
 
Hi Mike, thanks for your link. It will give me some more parameters to tweak when I have the thing in front of me :)


I'll let you know X)

The Axefx is an interesting beast. It is not setup to nail tones with preset amps, effects, ect right out of the box (at least in my experience)- it definitely requires some time spent reading and tweaking/listening. The real world amp counterparts are not necessarily saved off as presets....but the circuits have been modeled so that we can dial them in. All of this is my opinion of course.
For example, as of fw 10.2 - a fender amp as stock in the axefx has a master vol setting of 5 if I recall correctly. The wiki - with all the research that has been done on it- will have you set the master vol at 9.42 and drive at 3.50, this will set up the amp sim with the correct gain structure...then tweak your bass, mid, treble ect. This was the foundation which I drew from and started getting the most out of the amp sims in the axefx. Others experiences and techniques may differ- some have ears good enough to get there without reading....I required the help.
I see your other post about FRFR. I use FRFR and get what I find to be authentic amp/cab experience- but I did not get that right out of the box. It took some time to dissect the axefx before I got exactly what I wanted.
Most of my presets I play are amp and cab only.
Dont be discouraged, it's in there.
 
Back
Top Bottom