My first experience with 6.0 tone matching tonight = no joy.

chrisallen8888 said:
really not trying to be offensive here, but i'm not sure why you think a USB connection from your KPA would work. just because the cable fits doesn't mean the right data is sent. :) nowhere has any axe ii documentation stated any use for the USB connection other than as a computer interface.

*Well the why the heck is it listed as an input in the TM block?*

you having no desire to use a computer for the capture process is fine, and that's exactly how Input 2 relates...

you do understand that you have to input some sort of reference signal into the axe fx for it to tone match right? i mean, i know you get that if you use a KPA. so... if you don't use a computer and USB connection to input that reference, it would make sense to use some other axe input to get the reference signal in there right?

*I only feel that Fractal needs to be sure their documentation is a clear and failsafe as possible.*

let's start from the beginning.

what tone are you trying to match? do you have an audio recording of it? or is it a "live" signal?
Click to expand...

*I am trying to match a preset I personally profiled and tweaked within the KPA - I figure this is a great way to show what 6.0 is capable of (or not). I had hopes of taking my KPA profile and improving it, but it is apparently not meant to be at this point...
 
Honestly Radley, read the instructions and watch some of the by now many good videos for tonematching.
I mean i could do it, so it really cant be that hard :)
To me it sounds like you just dont want this to work no matter what.
 
Within the next week, I must decide on what combination of equipment I will use for the next 6 months of touring - I always start to feel some extra pressure at this point, but I must be decisive, and I will be...

Man I love my job!!!!
 
ok now i know. so you have a preset, let's say a tone, that you made with your KPA. and you want to tone match that in the axe, and hopefully the result is that the axe tone match sounds the same as your KPA, yes?

i don't have a KPA. but i just looked at the manual and the KPA has direct outs meant to go to a mixer or similar in it's MASTER OUTPUT section. connect a 1/4" cable from the Master Out left and connect it to Input 2 left on your axe fx.

the axe fx is expecting a complete guitar tone, which means amp+cab sound. again i don't know how the KPA works specifically, so if you're just trying to tone match just the amp you profiled without a cabinet sim, it will not work well.

axefx to full range speaker:
start with a blank axe fx preset, add shunts from in to out. then add an amp block and a cab block. select an amp and cab that is similar to the tone you are trying to match. in other words if it's a distortion tone you want to match, don't use a clean amp/cab sound in the axe fx. you have to get close. again we are tone matching, not profiling here.

once that is done, add a ToneMatch block after the cab block. so it should be Shunts-Amp-Cab-ToneMatch-Shunts

go to the edit screen of the tonematch block. go to page 2, process. change REF SOURCE to INPUT 2, because we are using input 2 as the reference source.
go back to page 1 of the tonematch block. now it's time to produce sound from your KPA, since that is the reference tone. so you probably will have to plug your guitar into the KPA and play it to make sound. but not yet.

while ready to play your guitar as just mentioned, press the X button on the axefx front panel. then make the KPA make sound (play your guitar). the reference square on the left will fill up with data. after about 5-10 seconds, press the X button again to stop the reference capture process. don't worry too much about the brief moments when you are not playing guitar while you are pressing the X buttton.

now it's time to capture the local signal. plug your guitar into the normal input you use with the axe fx, like the front instrument input. now, press the Y button and play your guitar. the right square will fill up with data and after about 5-10 seconds press the Y button again to stop the capture process. it helps if you play the guitar the same way you played it when capturing X.

now press the Enter button on the axe front panel. this immediately completes the tone match process. the sound should have changed and your result is the tone match. going back to page 2 of the tonematch block, you have some options there, which are documented in the tone match manual.


if you are not using a full range speaker as the above example, and instead using a power amp and guitar cab as your speakers, just don't add a cab block in the axe preset, but everything else is the same.

i was explicit and added a lot of extra words in the explanation above, making it seem complicated, but really the steps are simply as follows:

plug in your guitar to the axefx
plug in your reference source to input 2
make a preset that sounds similar to the tone you want to match
add a tonematch block after the cab block (or after the amp if no cab block is used)
on page 2 of tonematch block, change REF SOURCE to Input 2
back to page 1 of tonematch block, press X and play your reference source. press X again to stop.
press Y and play your guitar. press Y again to stop.
press enter.
process complete.
 
chrisallen8888 said:
ok now i know. so you have a preset, let's say a tone, that you made with your KPA. and you want to tone match that in the axe, and hopefully the result is that the axe tone match sounds the same as your KPA, yes?

i don't have a KPA. but i just looked at the manual and the KPA has direct outs meant to go to a mixer or similar in it's MASTER OUTPUT section. connect a 1/4" cable from the Master Out left and connect it to Input 2 left on your axe fx.

the axe fx is expecting a complete guitar tone, which means amp+cab sound. again i don't know how the KPA works specifically, so if you're just trying to tone match just the amp you profiled without a cabinet sim, it will not work well.

axefx to full range speaker:
start with a blank axe fx preset, add shunts from in to out. then add an amp block and a cab block. select an amp and cab that is similar to the tone you are trying to match. in other words if it's a distortion tone you want to match, don't use a clean amp/cab sound in the axe fx. you have to get close. again we are tone matching, not profiling here.

once that is done, add a ToneMatch block after the cab block. so it should be Shunts-Amp-Cab-ToneMatch-Shunts

go to the edit screen of the tonematch block. go to page 2, process. change REF SOURCE to INPUT 2, because we are using input 2 as the reference source.
go back to page 1 of the tonematch block. now it's time to produce sound from your KPA, since that is the reference tone. so you probably will have to plug your guitar into the KPA and play it to make sound. but not yet.

while ready to play your guitar as just mentioned, press the X button on the axefx front panel. then make the KPA make sound (play your guitar). the reference square on the left will fill up with data. after about 5-10 seconds, press the X button again to stop the reference capture process. don't worry too much about the brief moments when you are not playing guitar while you are pressing the X buttton.

now it's time to capture the local signal. plug your guitar into the normal input you use with the axe fx, like the front instrument input. now, press the Y button and play your guitar. the right square will fill up with data and after about 5-10 seconds press the Y button again to stop the capture process. it helps if you play the guitar the same way you played it when capturing X.

now press the Enter button on the axe front panel. this immediately completes the tone match process. the sound should have changed and your result is the tone match. going back to page 2 of the tonematch block, you have some options there, which are documented in the tone match manual.


if you are not using a full range speaker as the above example, and instead using a power amp and guitar cab as your speakers, just don't add a cab block in the axe preset, but everything else is the same.

i was explicit and added a lot of extra words in the explanation above, making it seem complicated, but really the steps are simply as follows:

plug in your guitar to the axefx
plug in your reference source to input 2
make a preset that sounds similar to the tone you want to match
add a tonematch block after the cab block (or after the amp if no cab block is used)
on page 2 of tonematch block, change REF SOURCE to Input 2
back to page 1 of tonematch block, press X and play your reference source. press X again to stop.
press Y and play your guitar. press Y again to stop.
press enter.
process complete.
Click to expand...

--------------------------

Chrisallen8888,

You are a saint! *Thanks so much* for your very clear explanation & directions to accomplish what I need to do. The purpose of my unique experiment is to show what the AFX II can do with it's new 6.0 features.... I realize I am not very sharp in the signal routing arena, so I need all the help I can get! Again, thanks for such a concise and thoughtful answer...

~Hadley~
 
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no problem, but to be frank, others "attacked" you because you kinda attacked the manual and the competency of other axe users here saying "WE" do not understand it, when maybe it just wasn't clear to you at the time.

i think you are just in KPA mode and needed to switch gears. if you can do the KPA, no doubt you can do the axe...

i could see that you were trying to mix 2 advanced pieces of gear and the knowledge of both might confuse the issue, so a conventional explanation might not have gone far enough to untangle the interfering knowledge of both units.
 
chrisallen8888 said:
no problem, but to be frank, others "attacked" you because you kinda attacked the manual and the competency of other axe users here saying "WE" do not understand it, when maybe it just wasn't clear to you at the time.

i think you are just in KPA mode and needed to switch gears. if you can do the KPA, no doubt you can do the axe...

i could see that you were trying to mix 2 advanced pieces of gear and the knowledge of both might confuse the issue, so a conventional explanation might not have gone far enough to untangle the interfering knowledge of both units.
Click to expand...

Do you not agree that the manual is incomplete, especially concerning situations like mine?
 
i have to respectfully disagree. it's all there. how did i know how to do it? i read the manual, read it step by step and was successful.

just checking, you did read the full 6 pages of the "tone match manual" right?

everything i said was from the manual. the only thing my explanation added was the specific output of your KPA.

i'm kinda thinking you only saw page 1?
 
i think you can always explain something more or go more in depth, etc, but it seems to all be in there. i'm really not sure what it was i said that was any different than what the manual said.

do you know what step or part the manual seems to be missing? was there an "a-ha!" moment when you read my explanation?
 
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chrisallen8888 said:
ok now i know. so you have a preset, let's say a tone, that you made with your KPA. and you want to tone match that in the axe, and hopefully the result is that the a......
Click to expand...

Wow dude - talk about going above and beyond and out of your way to help someone, even to the point of learning about THEIR equipment so you can better help them, with no perceivable self gain.

THIS is the kind of thing that makes this forum tremendously cool. I'd be throwing all my kudos points your way right now, if there were such a thing (and if I had any).

Good man!
 
Radley said:
Do you not agree that the manual is incomplete, especially concerning situations like mine?
Click to expand...


Not really...

Radley, I have nothing but respect for you and your resume. But I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. In my previous post I basically said pretty much the same thing that chrisallen8888 has so eloquently and in great detailed explained. I think you are making more out of it than needed.

If I can understand it, and I am a complete novice, surely it could not be that complex for a pro like you. I simply read the pages supplied and watched the two videos stickied on the tone matching forum (which was pointed out to you). There are a couple of ways to set the input depending on the reference source and couple of ways you can create your local preset. I am sure once you do one successfully, regardless of outcome quality, you will realize that you were overthinking it.

Once you have that down you can then get into the other parameters that allow you to adjust the percentage, smoothing, and level of the matching to improve your experience. I am totally looking forward to hearing what you come up with.

Now with that said, my girlfriend wants me to take her to see Neil at the Greek in August. I'm expecting perks! :mrgreen

Nice job chrisallen8888!!!!!
 
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Good job there Chris

Once there's a demo vid of a mic>preamp>input2 method done (I'm not hinting at or demanding one - but I'm sure someone will do one some day) it would help any other confused owners I'm sure. Obviously the mic>preamp would be replaced with a normal 1/4 inch to 1/4 inch from a line out from the 'other' device.

I've gone to tone match a couple of times but to tell the truth once I found a similar sounding amp type as the 'reference' in the Axe and tweaked it a little just to be sure it was close I got a tone that sounded good enough and didn't actually need the TM! Sounds incredibly bum licky fan boi ...... but true in my case. I'm lazy enough to appreciate that.

In fact I'd like to complain .... Tone matching seems to be taunting me to widen my preferred playing tones someday and be less boring -I paid a lot of dosh for this thing, how dare you!
 
just fyi, i try to speak to everyone the same on here regardless of resume. i mean no offense and i don't assume you know anything or everything. i try to stay neutral and provide the facts and some background info to things i describe.

i only change my tone when someone's forum behavior forces my opinion to change (radley did not, just explaining).
 
Radley said:
I was using USB from my KPA
Click to expand...
Sorry but... OMG!?! :mrgreen:mrgreen:mrgreen

The (extra included) manual & video seem very simple to follow to me.
But for all of us, there comes an age we have to come to terms with our inability to keep up with things, which makes that even having to read one page is too much. I am surely and steadily approaching this as well, so no dig at you.

I don't understand where what you did was common sense though? USB is not like instrument jacks.
icon_razz.gif
There are whole software protocols behind it that must match up, some standardized, some device specific. You've been making misinterpretations that I'm not understanding from a musician and electronics buff like yourself...

But ok, let's write this off to stress then... Have a great tour! (and make Fractal proud, if you can ;))

(If you're even considering the KPA, I guess it has already fixed its poor dependability with preset switching? ;-) At least, that's what I read some time ago, possibly from you.)
 
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Radley said:
I didn't even succeed in getting an acceptable signal into the reference module - it is substantially more complex than explained so far, imho. If it is to be a successful feature, I believe it must be thoroughly documented and demonstrated, in an all-inclusive way...
Click to expand...

Once you get past the communication issues between the Axe-Fx and your computer, the actual matching process is very simple. I had issues with both Sonar LE and Cubase. Sonar recognized the Axe-Fx II device but no signal was being routed to the Axe. Cubase showed the Axe in its device list, but the output was "inactive" and I couldn't make it active.

I finally installed Audacity, selected the Axe as the output and it worked the first time.

On the Tone Match Block on the Process page, change Reference Source to USB. That's all I had to do. Then when I played my reference clip in Audacity it showed up in the Axe.

BTW - I matched the intro guitar of Van Halen's D.O.A. I then added some delay and reverb and it sounded really close. Close enough to use live. In fact, I liked the tone so much, I'm going to use it a lot live.
 
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