My 2 Cents: Why Some People think Axe-Fx Doesn't Sound Great

musicman0001

musicman0001

Experienced
And my answer is simple (and yet so complicated) and it's not the axe fx that is "to blame.

When i started modelling I was so happy that finally I had so many amps and effects. I started with the Purple Monster from Digitech which was a hybrid solution (digital and analog) and it had real tubes. FRFR & amp/cab emulation was not really (to me) on par, but trough a cabinet I suddenly had so many sounds to tweak to my needs wich could easily be accessed by a footswitch.

Now years later I have "similar" set up (The III Turbo), but now using FRFR, so I can create sounds more in line with what you hear on the record and what the audience is hearing when listen to a live performance. And as a guitar player used to hearing sounds through a cabinet and not very known in all the things that happen after it leaves the speaker cabinet.

What I learned througout the years reading this forum and my own search I can summarize some of my "black eyes" I encounterted:
  • Cliff is (almost) allways right, and he seems to be very knowledgable on the science of audio
  • Yes there can and will be bugs, all products have challenges to fix or to overcome
  • FRFR is absolutely (!) NOT the same as "amp and cab" and a lot of people keep comparing grapes and raisins (same fruit, but very different)
  • Every person has different taste and expectations
  • The sounds of guitars on most records are NOT the same as you think they are
  • FRFR and recording are very complicated due to soo many factors (your ears, your expectations and brain, the way you have set up your guitar, speakers, IR's, microphones, gainstages)
  • The whole setup you use to create or to recreate the sound (even with the same speakers, tools, etc..) can be dissapointing as others seems to get it right from the start. Again: it's not the axe fx, but it's the whole chain
  • Audio is just very very complex, and the ones that got it right are lucky, have the proper setup or they really understand audio very well
  • Speakers and a threated room or how you place them really do matter (and for me already it starts with how strings are set up!!)
  • It has been mainly me, not understanding it all and too big expections
  • Fletcher–Munson and air-movement at your pants (added as indeed this is very underestimeted subject)
Here are some of my tips and tricks that worked for me and what I figured out the hard way: (this to shorten the first entry)
 
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Good summary.

We could add another two factors: Fletcher–Munson and air-movement at your pants and through the room. Some expect to have the same experience with their modeler through headphones or small speakers at home than in front of their 4x12 stack at full-throttle at the rehearsal room or at the stage.
 
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First of all I want to start by saying, I'm not there yet(!) as I have not a full chain of factors at home that works for me. Of course I wished I had. When I see and hear things on YOUTUBE or in this forum from people like Leon Todd, Frank Mueller, Marco Fanton, Cooper Carter I'm like why can I not get my axe fx to sound like that (it's the same product....)

The biggest of them all (besides the fact that nowbody is steve vai or stevie ray vaughan or john mayer) is that there is a chain of factors in which sound is percieved, recorded, and played back. And they seem to have found a great way to sound great on YouTube and in recordings the way they want to sound.

But when I try the same presets, it NEVER sound the same. WHY is that?

The simple answer is: "I am not them, different fingers, different playing and I do not have the same chain of tools."

But I found that it's way more complex then that. Let's take strings -> Lately I noticed that I play with 1 preset and 1 guitar to achieve a certain sound and feel (solo Extreme - Get The Funk Out). The following already has a very big impact on the sound.

  • The hight of the strings
  • If the strings are new or old, and even temperature
  • If they are tuned properly
  • It changes during playing

As all these have small sonic effects and I usually tweaked accordingly, but lately when making a new preset or use a preset more extensively I have a sort of reference preset where I tune and set up my guitar to, as this preset is ALLWAYS the same (1 JCM800 stock settings with my prefered IR and 1 clean amp also stock settings).

When I did not do that, my preset that I thought was heaven to play with suddely with NO changes sounded crap the next day. But nothing changed in the preset as it was saved. Yes it was saved, but
  • I changed the preset in the beginning to match the guitar
  • I changed the guitar to match the tweaked not referenced preset
  • It was very sunny and hot, today it's cold, humid and rainy
  • I did not clean my strings
Again this is ALL ME, its NOT the axe fx that suddenly has changed the preset when it was turned off hahaha...

QUESTION out of curiousity:

  • What is your reference?
  • Do you notice that strings are indeed a sonic factor?
  • And how do you end up taking this into account to the whole chain of things?

(Up Next will be my Adam Audio Speakers)..... FRFR and monitoring
 
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There is a thread where Leon Todd shared the dry recording of his guitar for reamping, after several people complained that they could not get the same tone as his demo on YouTube, using the same preset and the same guitar. These people found that Leon's dry guitar signal, when reamped at his equipment, had exactly the same tone as on YouTube. So, in that case the blame is on the player's technique :D
 
All valid points - guitar and player having a major impact. A big thing to bear in mind is that recorded tones rarely 'feel' or sound the same as when playing live through FRFR, for example. The tones in a mix have to sit nicely with the other frequencies being presented and, on their own, can sound thin and fizzy.

My tones for recording are less gainy and less 'full' sounding than anything I play through my FRFR but they sound thicker and meatier when in a mix. The speakers you'll hear these tones through (stereo, car, studio monitors at ear level - and that's important too!) will be a different listening experience than having them blasted at you through FRFR (for all the reasons given in previous posts, FM being a big one) and you need to adjust your tones with that in mind.
 
musicman0001 said:
The sounds of guitars on most records are NOT the same as you think they are
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Definetly - Yes.

Try to recreate a recorded guitar of Band X is only nearly possible if you really know what was used exactly.
And even then there are so many other factors and not at least the playing style of guitarist.

Think of an album like Black Album of Metallica where many overdub tracks were used with different amps and setups.
And editing the sound with EQs and other stuff after recording doing the rest.
 
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Piing said:
There is a thread where Leon Todd shared the dry recording of his guitar for reamping, after several people complained that they could not get the same tone as his demo on YouTube, using the same preset and the same guitar. These people found that Leon's dry guitar signal, when reamped at his equipment, had exactly the same tone as on YouTube. So, in that case the blame is on the player's technique :D
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Would be an interessting topic: how does my DI sound sounds through his set up and listning back on youtube.

Even my preset and DI through his setup.

(Besides taste, that is subjective)
 
musicman0001 said:
  • What is your reference?
  • Do you notice that strings are indeed a sonic factor?
  • And how do you end up taking this into account to the whole chain of things?
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  • Mood ;)
  • Sure - and even plecs - I use differnt plecs and notice very well the difference with same guitar and strings - actually switched to lighter strings after years using 10-48 now to 9-42 - and sound is more defined - tried several strings and come always back to D'Addario.
  • Using FRFR at home but EQd similar to my Cabs with wideband Eminence Beta 12 LTA speakers und most times getting sound nearly close - if not I tweak it in rehearsal room and make a copy before- Actually I found a good compromise for both situations - when recording I always record DI track parallel and reamp track if needed or sound fits not to recorded material or song.
 
In my experience when people are not happy with a particular modeler's sound, it's often a question of output devices.

People often spend most of their budget on a modeler of brand X and then spend as little as possible on the output system plugged into it. Shitty headphones, computer speakers (think some cheap 5.1 system with tiny speakers), those Headrush "FRFR" boxes or other cheap PA wedges are way too common. Then they run those at very low home volumes and find they don't sound like those big tones you heard on YouTube that were recorded with cranked amps in a acoustically treated room miced with pro grade mics by people who know what they are doing and finally mixed together in post-production.

About 8 years ago I spent some money on a pair of Genelec M040 monitors that are nowhere near the top of their range. They are kind of like budget version of the Genelec 8040. Compared to many others I find I have way fewer issues getting sounds I like out of any modeler, whether it's a Strymon Iridium, a Quad Cortex, Line6 Helix or Fractal products. Owned all of them. Similarly I had no problems running the Axe-Fx 2 into the Atomic FR 1x12 (50W neutral tube poweramp, 1x12 woofer and small tweeter) for years.

While the cost of good studio monitors, FRFR systems etc may seem high at first, don't forget that we are talking about gear that could easily work for several decades. Buy good once, keep using until it fails. I probably spend more money on streaming services per year than if I were to split the cost of my Genelecs down to yearly costs.

Good modeler into a good output system at a reasonable volume goes a long way. The rest is learning to work the gear you have and then you can start nitpicking about your guitar setup, strings etc.

Obviously playing technique matters for how good your playing sounds and it's the thing that makes us all sound unique, but purely for guitar tone I feel the gear does the trick. If we have a nice Marshall type rhythm overdrive setting setup and you plug in an experienced and a beginner guitarist and tell them to play a single powerchord, it's not going to be a case where the beginner sounds massively worse if we evaluate pure guitar tone.
 
laxu said:
In my experience when people are not happy with a particular modeler's sound, it's often a question of output devices.

People often spend most of their budget on a modeler of brand X and then spend as little as possible on the output system plugged into it. Shitty headphones, computer speakers (think some cheap 5.1 system with tiny speakers), those Headrush "FRFR" boxes or other cheap PA wedges are way too common. Then they run those at very low home volumes and find they don't sound like those big tones you heard on YouTube that were recorded with cranked amps in a acoustically treated room miced with pro grade mics by people who know what they are doing and finally mixed together in post-production.

About 8 years ago I spent some money on a pair of Genelec M040 monitors that are nowhere near the top of their range. They are kind of like budget version of the Genelec 8040. Compared to many others I find I have way fewer issues getting sounds I like out of any modeler, whether it's a Strymon Iridium, a Quad Cortex, Line6 Helix or Fractal products. Owned all of them. Similarly I had no problems running the Axe-Fx 2 into the Atomic FR 1x12 (50W neutral tube poweramp, 1x12 woofer and small tweeter) for years.

While the cost of good studio monitors, FRFR systems etc may seem high at first, don't forget that we are talking about gear that could easily work for several decades. Buy good once, keep using until it fails. I probably spend more money on streaming services per year than if I were to split the cost of my Genelecs down to yearly costs.

Good modeler into a good output system at a reasonable volume goes a long way. The rest is learning to work the gear you have and then you can start nitpicking about your guitar setup, strings etc.

Obviously playing technique matters for how good your playing sounds and it's the thing that makes us all sound unique, but purely for guitar tone I feel the gear does the trick. If we have a nice Marshall type rhythm overdrive setting setup and you plug in an experienced and a beginner guitarist and tell them to play a single powerchord, it's not going to be a case where the beginner sounds massively worse if we evaluate pure guitar tone.
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100% true, as soon as i got my pair of EVE Audio SC307 3way 250w Speakers everything was on a whole other level.
It made such a big difference it was unbelievable! They are a bit pricey but it was well worth it for me.
 
sprint said:
People love to hate him for sure, and he provokes with his "schtick", but imo he has put out some comprehensive well thought thru content.
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Yes he has puts tons of videos out with useful information. I don't think we can call him the worst ever.
 
You left off the #1 problem, by far. BIAS. Many people have their minds made up before they even listen. This is evident by every blind test Ive ever seen or done. Many guitarists tend to listen with their eyes and frontal lobes instead of their ears.
 
Title of thread could be, well, a bit less drastic. I know what you were "trying" to do, still.
I have said this before and I will say it again. I am so glad that I concentrate on the music I make with my guitar. I stopped this constant quest for what I perceived as perfect sound for me.
I don't settle for garbage but I do recognize that I have done all I can to get my guitar sounding like I want it to and I am happy with that.
Been playing 40+ years. didn't happen overnight.
Ah, Good Luck!
 
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