Moving to fractal from helix, need help!

Another thought, after spending the money on the FM3, how likely are you to spend 50% more on the FM9 or settle on the FM3 if you find you need a little more than the FM3 is capable of?
 
I own both a Helix Floor and FM3. I'm saying it's user error if you cannot get absolutely crushing high gain tones out of the Helix. It has several models that do it well. Personal favorites are the SLO, Mark IV, REVV, Archon and Line6 Badonk.

One cool setup I discovered was to use the Archetype Lead model -> Mesa graphic EQ -> cab sim. The graphic EQ works well to shape the highs and lows a bit so the amp model sounds angrier. Lower the sag a bit on the amp model to tighten it up further.

With the Helix, 3rd party IRs are really a must. It's not that the stock cab sims cannot sound good but it's just way easier to get great results with 3rd party stuff with less fiddling needed. Ownhammer, York Audio, ML Sound Lab are all good. Try pairing two IR blocks in parallel with different cab sims for extra beefy tones.

I would put the amp and cab sims on Helix vs FM3 roughly on par. Fractal offers a ton more adjustment for both and comes with a stellar IR library. When both are piped through the same 3rd party IRs, the sound and feel are largely the same in my experience when I have A/B'd them together through my Genelec M040 studio monitors. I've used the Fractal as a reference tone and dialed the closest Helix model for the same sound and response. The settings end up wildly different but the end result is all that matters.

I would honestly look at trying some other output system before selling your Helix for Fractal. The Altos afaik are not particularly well regarded as far as FRFRs go.

If you still decide you want to go Fractal, I would try to get the FM9 as it's going to be a closer equivalent to Helix Floor or LT than the FM3.
 
laxu said:
I own both a Helix Floor and FM3. I'm saying it's user error if you cannot get absolutely crushing high gain tones out of the Helix. It has several models that do it well. Personal favorites are the SLO, Mark IV, REVV, Archon and Line6 Badonk.

One cool setup I discovered was to use the Archetype Lead model -> Mesa graphic EQ -> cab sim. The graphic EQ works well to shape the highs and lows a bit so the amp model sounds angrier. Lower the sag a bit on the amp model to tighten it up further.

With the Helix, 3rd party IRs are really a must. It's not that the stock cab sims cannot sound good but it's just way easier to get great results with 3rd party stuff with less fiddling needed. Ownhammer, York Audio, ML Sound Lab are all good. Try pairing two IR blocks in parallel with different cab sims for extra beefy tones.

I would put the amp and cab sims on Helix vs FM3 roughly on par. Fractal offers a ton more adjustment for both and comes with a stellar IR library. When both are piped through the same 3rd party IRs, the sound and feel are largely the same in my experience when I have A/B'd them together through my Genelec M040 studio monitors. I've used the Fractal as a reference tone and dialed the closest Helix model for the same sound and response. The settings end up wildly different but the end result is all that matters.

I would honestly look at trying some other output system before selling your Helix for Fractal. The Altos afaik are not particularly well regarded as far as FRFRs go.

If you still decide you want to go Fractal, I would try to get the FM9 as it's going to be a closer equivalent to Helix Floor or LT than the FM3.
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Quoting the OP:


"Hello chaps, I need your expertise..

Without getting too deep into the fractal vs helix debate, suffice to say as amazing as the Helix is, I was never really happy with the high gain, metal, rock tones. I've lived with it for a few years and you know when you hear a high gain tone that is immediately satisfying vs something that you just accept because you've tried everything on the unit and just can't improve it, and that's where I'm at, I don't think the high gain stuff is as good as what I've hears elsewhere."

:)
 
Paulzx said:
Exactly my thoughts, if the fm3 gets me some high gain tones I'm happy with, that's my start point then I'll wait for an fm9.

I notice people are mentioning the lack of being able to run two amp models together, is that something a lot of you are doing then? Helix does that no problem, I just never really used it because it didn't help my situation.

Is there any reason a single amp is not desirable in fm3?
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I play in an 80's arena rock band (Def Leppard, Motley Crue, Whitesnake, etc) and have been using the FM3 for a while now. My patches are pretty straightforward, but still pretty powerful. I use scenes and can get clean, dirt, heavy, and lead sounds among other options. I use a pair of Roland FS7 footswitches to get an additional 4 switches which is plenty for my usage.


1630788639553.png


Where you run into limitations is when you need lots of complex delays and reverbs. If your needs are like mine, you can easily get by with an FM3.
 
Ive done many High gain metal recordings with the FM3 and my Band mate has one he use's live with plenty of room for great live patches, just saying
 
la noise said:
Quoting the OP:


"Hello chaps, I need your expertise..

Without getting too deep into the fractal vs helix debate, suffice to say as amazing as the Helix is, I was never really happy with the high gain, metal, rock tones. I've lived with it for a few years and you know when you hear a high gain tone that is immediately satisfying vs something that you just accept because you've tried everything on the unit and just can't improve it, and that's where I'm at, I don't think the high gain stuff is as good as what I've hears elsewhere."

:)
Click to expand...
Which to me points that OP hasn't explored everything the unit has to offer because like Fractal there's so many ways to shape the sound more to your liking and we don't know what exactly OP has tried. It's easy to get bad sounds out of these things if you pair amp models with the wrong IRs, don't run your output system loud enough or hook up to something subpar. OP might get a FM3 or FM9 and still end up dissatisfied if the problem with his tones is not the modeler itself but other stuff hooked up to it or how it is setup.

I'm not trying to start a debate here about the strengths and weaknesses of either brand's devices but to possibly save OP money by saying that they are not so far apart in terms of amp/cab modeling.
 
JoKeR III said:
Another thought, after spending the money on the FM3, how likely are you to spend 50% more on the FM9 or settle on the FM3 if you find you need a little more than the FM3 is capable of?
Click to expand...

Theory is fm3 gets me into the fractal stuff right now, then wait for fm9 to become more readily available or second hand to buy. There are people here using fm3 to play live with so I'm pretty sure it will be enough for me initially
 
Paulzx said:
Nothing hectic really, single amp, delay, reverb, dist pedal if needed
Click to expand...

That's pretty close to most of the signal chains that I use, and the FM3 can handle that without breaking a sweat. My CPU usage for presets similar to that runs around 60-70%.

It's easy to overload it if you go nuts or try to build a "kitchen sink" preset that does everything, but having said that this would be the same with any modeler out there if you go crazy with it.
 
laxu said:
I own both a Helix Floor and FM3. I'm saying it's user error if you cannot get absolutely crushing high gain tones out of the Helix. It has several models that do it well. Personal favorites are the SLO, Mark IV, REVV, Archon and Line6 Badonk.

One cool setup I discovered was to use the Archetype Lead model -> Mesa graphic EQ -> cab sim. The graphic EQ works well to shape the highs and lows a bit so the amp model sounds angrier. Lower the sag a bit on the amp model to tighten it up further.

With the Helix, 3rd party IRs are really a must. It's not that the stock cab sims cannot sound good but it's just way easier to get great results with 3rd party stuff with less fiddling needed. Ownhammer, York Audio, ML Sound Lab are all good. Try pairing two IR blocks in parallel with different cab sims for extra beefy tones.

I would put the amp and cab sims on Helix vs FM3 roughly on par. Fractal offers a ton more adjustment for both and comes with a stellar IR library. When both are piped through the same 3rd party IRs, the sound and feel are largely the same in my experience when I have A/B'd them together through my Genelec M040 studio monitors. I've used the Fractal as a reference tone and dialed the closest Helix model for the same sound and response. The settings end up wildly different but the end result is all that matters.

I would honestly look at trying some other output system before selling your Helix for Fractal. The Altos afaik are not particularly well regarded as far as FRFRs go.

If you still decide you want to go Fractal, I would try to get the FM9 as it's going to be a closer equivalent to Helix Floor or LT than the FM3.
Click to expand...

Yep literally done all of that. I think the Helix does a lot of things well but I'm still not convinced on the high gain stuff. Yes it does it but I've never been happy with it and it's a very specific thing for me, it's why I bought the unit in the first place. It's interesting that you put them on a par, but there are a lot of others putting fractal noticeably above the Helix, and the ultimate reference of course are the pros who all use Fractal now, there has to be reason for that.

You might be right about the output. I got the alto speakers because they were recommended on the Helix forum at the time. I have considered changing those too but I just find it hard to believe that would change the type of distortion I'm getting from my tones.

The high gain stuff on the Helix tends to be fizzy and artificial sounding. You can't really add much base because then it gets boomy. From what I've heard so far, the fractal does sound a lot more like a real amp
 
bdrepko said:
I play in an 80's arena rock band (Def Leppard, Motley Crue, Whitesnake, etc) and have been using the FM3 for a while now. My patches are pretty straightforward, but still pretty powerful. I use scenes and can get clean, dirt, heavy, and lead sounds among other options. I use a pair of Roland FS7 footswitches to get an additional 4 switches which is plenty for my usage.


View attachment 88115


Where you run into limitations is when you need lots of complex delays and reverbs. If your needs are like mine, you can easily get by with an FM3.
Click to expand...

That's exactly the sort of thing I've tried to achieve on the Helix.. and ended up here instead!
 
FWIW, I've had a Helix since 2016 and find the high gain stuff in the Fractal much more to my liking. The Helix is capable of sounding great, but you have to put a lot of effort into coaxing the good stuff out of it. The Fractal is already 90% there with the stock settings, with the final 10% being more about tweaking to taste.
 
Paulzx said:
The high gain stuff on the Helix tends to be fizzy and artificial sounding.
Click to expand...
This was exactly the thing that tipped the scale to Fractal for me. I wanted the Helix but the more I compared it to Fractal, the AX8 at the time, there was something about the gain, a fizziness, that reminded me of the XT Live and X3 Live. The AX8 sounded more natural to me and I'm extremely glad I swallowed my pride, ate some crow and took the chance on it.

5 years later, and now using the Axe III and FM3, I've never been more satisfied and content with my tone.
 
Frodebro said:
FWIW, I've had a Helix since 2016 and find the high gain stuff in the Fractal much more to my liking. The Helix is capable of sounding great, but you have to put a lot of effort into coaxing the good stuff out of it. The Fractal is already 90% there with the stock settings, with the final 10% being more about tweaking to taste.
Click to expand...

Probably a very accurate summary. Just out of interest, when you say it is possible to coax a great sound out of the Helix, and bearing in mind my particular requirement, can you suggest a method or road map to do it? After years of trying I would be annoyed to think it was possible, but I feel like I've exhausted all the options
 
JoKeR III said:
This was exactly the thing that tipped the scale to Fractal for me. I wanted the Helix but the more I compared it to Fractal, the AX8 at the time, there was something about the gain, a fizziness, that reminded me of the XT Live and X3 Live. The AX8 sounded more natural to me and I'm extremely glad I swallowed my pride, ate some crow and took the chance on it.

5 years later, and now using the Axe III and FM3, I've never been more satisfied and content with my tone.
Click to expand...

I spoke to Pete from this forum earlier and that was basically our summary too.
I think it's inevitable I will try the fm3 fairly soon, unless someone can show me how to get just as good high gain out of helix..
 
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