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Most "in the room" FRFR solution

yeky83

Power User
You can never get the former (unmic'd guitar speaker sound) from an FRFR with cab/mic modeling. However, you can get more of the later (speaker sound bouncing around the room) with an open back cab.
You can get the unmic'd guitar cab sound from an FRFR if you use far-field IRs.

And using an open-back cab with near-field IRs doesn't make for "speaker sound bouncing around the room." More accurate would be "mic'd speaker sound bouncing around the room." Whether that makes for a more amp-in-room sound is up for subjective debate I guess.
 

yeky83

Power User
In my research watching YouTube reviews, several reviewers suggest the Mission Gemini 2 with their mPower has the best amp in the room sound. But it's super pricey, so curious if any other FRFR speakers at lower price points will give that feel. Not sure how to be more specific than that.
EmPower knob turns down the treble. You can easily do that on the AX8, you don't have to spend extra on the Gemini for this feature at all. And the Mission Gemini FRFR stuff is overpriced, heavy, and under-powered. If you do any search at all, you'll see that I've said it before so I won't go on.

If you want "amp in the room" sound easily, go for the Line 6 PowerCab. It's not really FRFR, but it's probably the best fit for what you want.

But I'd strongly recommend you get a decent pair of studio monitors. It'll be more practical for your needs (you really don't need a high output FRFR for playing at home, you're wasting your money), and stereo is great. There's a lot of good cheap studio monitors, have your pick.
 

sam

Experienced
You can get the unmic'd guitar cab sound from an FRFR if you use far-field IRs.

And using an open-back cab with near-field IRs doesn't make for "speaker sound bouncing around the room." More accurate would be "mic'd speaker sound bouncing around the room." Whether that makes for a more amp-in-room sound is up for subjective debate I guess.

I think this is splitting hairs here. Far-field IRs are still generated via microphones. Also I didn't say "guitar speaker" sound bouncing around the room just "speaker sound". I guess this hair splitting is natural when people are focused on specific technical details like this. I just feel that we are arguing about different things here.

I think that among FRFR solutions, an open back version like the MBritt is just naturally going to feel and sound more like an open back guitar cabinet than a traditional FRFR closed back speaker or monitor would. I probably should have just said that at the beginning so as not to confuse or imply anything else.
 

unix-guy

Legend!
I think that among FRFR solutions, an open back version like the MBritt is just naturally going to feel and sound more like an open back guitar cabinet than a traditional FRFR closed back speaker or monitor would. I probably should have just said that at the beginning so as not to confuse or imply anything else.

But "Amp in the room" doesn't equate to an open back guitar cabinet. It is ANY guitar speaker cab.

If that is your specific point of comparison, then yes, an open back FRFR is going to be closest to that...

Anyway... I've had this discussion too many times... :(
 

addedc

Experienced
I haven't heard or played the MBritt, but I have owned Atomic CLR, Matrix FR12, Xitone 2x12, Verve FTB, and a Matrix power amp through a THD cab. My bandmate owned a Friedman ASM12 for a bit. To me, the cab and power amp and the Friedman were the rawest, most amp in the room sound of those. Lots of people prefer that sound. For me, I like the way the CLR sounds better -- it's a little less harsh.
 

yeky83

Power User
I think this is splitting hairs here. Far-field IRs are still generated via microphones.
Far-field IRs are generated so that the microphone is not a factor in the sound produced. You'll get an "unmic'd guitar speaker sound," as you put it.
Also I didn't say "guitar speaker" sound bouncing around the room just "speaker sound". I guess this hair splitting is natural when people are focused on specific technical details like this. I just feel that we are arguing about different things here.
I didn't say "guitar speaker" sound bouncing around the room either. So I dunno what you're splitting hairs about.

Oh, did you mean, whatever sound comes out of whatever speaker is bouncing around the room, and that's desirable? Well if that's all you want, you don't even need an open back, just turn whatever speaker you have away from you.
I think that among FRFR solutions, an open back version like the MBritt is just naturally going to feel and sound more like an open back guitar cabinet than a traditional FRFR closed back speaker or monitor would. I probably should have just said that at the beginning so as not to confuse or imply anything else.
As @unix-guy pointed out, your point only makes sense if "amp in the room" for you means "open back cab in the room." Hope I don't come across as splitting hairs, but seems you're applying a specific case to the general.
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
I haven't heard or played the MBritt, but I have owned Atomic CLR, Matrix FR12, Xitone 2x12, Verve FTB, and a Matrix power amp through a THD cab. My bandmate owned a Friedman ASM12 for a bit. To me, the cab and power amp and the Friedman were the rawest, most amp in the room sound of those. Lots of people prefer that sound. For me, I like the way the CLR sounds better -- it's a little less harsh.


Careful not to equate inaccurate frequency response with subjective terms like “raw”, which can yield an emotional response.

The ASM-12 (i owned one) isn’t the flattest of FRFR, so with its accentuated lows and highs it will sound different, but it’s can be “tamed” just as the CLR can be eq’d to be a little less smooth. The CLR is actually the most linear response though and the most accurate. Just might not be the most musically pleasing.

It’s the same thing with reference monitors. One person calls them “harsh”, too much highs, but another says no, they are “revealing” or “honest”.

Another likes a speaker with a tuned rear port that’s close to a rear wall because it’s got “fuller” low end, but another (wisely) would say it’s less accurate and has an “over-hyped” low end.

A good monitor shouldn’t have a sound characteristic, it should be as neutral as possible. Nothing is perfect, but the less it colors the tone, the better. It’s supposed to give you an accurate idea of what the input sounds like.

That is why things like tweeter cuts make zero sense to me. Why have your speaker influence your tone ? People seem to like the L6 becasue it sounds “like a guitar speaker”, but that is just a kind of ignorant way of saying it’s cutting highs.

Well news flash, you can cut highs in the cab block and elsewhere, and then when you send your signal to your monitor, it won’t sound overly harsh et al.

If you send a full frequency signal to a monitor with a high cut it might sound “good”, or more like the rolled off highs of a guitar speaker, but what happens when you think that is actually how you sound ? Send it to a PA or record it and it’s going to sound harsh and tinny, because you don’t have your speaker shaping the sound....

Just makes zero sense to me. Why not have your monitor sound like what your input sounds like ? If it’s too “boomy” “muddy” “harsh” etc, adjust it so the Axe output sounds the way you want.

I don’t really know why so many people are so confused by all this on so many forums......
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
But "Amp in the room" doesn't equate to an open back guitar cabinet. It is ANY guitar speaker cab.

If that is your specific point of comparison, then yes, an open back FRFR is going to be closest to that...

Anyway... I've had this discussion too many times... :(


Just have those folks who think their open back cab is magical, because it sounds good in their bedroom, play on an open air stage, where there is no roof, no walls. Suddenly their tone got a whole lot “smaller”, but their grasp of room acoustics grew a bit lol
 

80sMetalDude

Inspired
Expensive but I LOVE my Freidman ASM12s started with one and got the 2nd one recently. Yes it sounds like a guitar cab and some will say bla bla bla 'it's not realllly true FRFR' but let me just say if you want amp in the room 'wall of Marshall' cabs behind you.... let me just say 'yeah'.... combine that with FAS gear and it is dream....

I really should make some vids...
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
Expensive but I LOVE my Freidman ASM12s started with one and got the 2nd one recently. Yes it sounds like a guitar cab and some will say bla bla bla 'it's not realllly true FRFR' but let me just say if you want amp in the room 'wall of Marshall' cabs behind you.... let me just say 'yeah'.... combine that with FAS gear and it is dream....

I really should make some vids...


I owned one, and glad you love yours, but it certainly isn’t doing anything magical to bend the laws of physics. It’s not even an original design, it’s based off a PA speaker. That doesn’t mean it can’t sound good, but it’s hyperbole to state that it sounds like a wall of Marshall’s or anything along those lines.

It sounds like a bi-amp 500watt 1x12 wedge without a co-axial tweeter. In other words it sounds near identical to another 500 watt 1x12 in wedge position like a CLR except the Co-axial, co-incident design gives the CLR slightly better imaging at close distances since your not closer to the tweeter or 1x12 woofer, as those are physically spread far enough apart to hear a difference.

I’ve had both units set up side by side and toggled back and forth with an A/B switch. If you really, really listen there are differences, but if you blindly played one at random, I don’t think it’s possible to tell them apart.

Both are great and can get darn loud, and someone should be happy with either, but when you make claims that one sounds like a wall of Marshall’s, it just creates confusion and unrealistic expectations in people reading these forums.

If you understand the physics of speaker design, room acoustics et al., then it becomes clear how certain claims don’t hold water.
 

80sMetalDude

Inspired
I owned one, and glad you love yours, but it certainly isn’t doing anything magical to bend the laws of physics. It’s not even an original design, it’s based off a PA speaker. That doesn’t mean it can’t sound good, but it’s hyperbole to state that it sounds like a wall of Marshall’s or anything along those lines.

It sounds like a bi-amp 500watt 1x12 wedge without a co-axial tweeter. In other words it sounds near identical to another 500 watt 1x12 in wedge position like a CLR except the Co-axial, co-incident design gives the CLR slightly better imaging at close distances since your not closer to the tweeter or 1x12 woofer, as those are physically spread far enough apart to hear a difference.

I’ve had both units set up side by side and toggled back and forth with an A/B switch. If you really, really listen there are differences, but if you blindly played one at random, I don’t think it’s possible to tell them apart.

Both are great and can get darn loud, and someone should be happy with either, but when you make claims that one sounds like a wall of Marshall’s, it just creates confusion and unrealistic expectations in people reading these forums.

If you understand the physics of speaker design, room acoustics et al., then it becomes clear how certain claims don’t hold water.
Point taken. Word play really, my bad, I should have said it feels damn near it in my 'basement world' imaginary arena with 60,000 fans chanting my name :) where I jam. Fair enough?

I do love music and between FRFR and FAS plus IRs you can get some damn impressive powerful sounds with 2 Good FRFR. I've been at this about 30 years and have been through a tremendous amount of gear in that time like many here and I can honestly say that this is the first time in my life that I am not still on an endless quest for 'that rig'... I'm finally more than happy. Anyone that has visited has been blown away by what it sounds like from these 2 small wedges fed by the AXE III. Same goes for the AX8...

I stand by what I said and still recommend the ASM-12.
 
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Tahoebrian5

Fractal Fanatic
The Friedman ASM12 seems to be the most widely accepted amp in the room as far as frfr setups go. I’m basing this off reading many many posts here over the years. It is not considered very accurate though and has some hyped frequencies. I use the ASM and I really can’t tell the difference from my 2x12 cab other than wider dispersement.
 

m lebofsky

Experienced
The Friedman ASM12 seems to be the most widely accepted amp in the room as far as frfr setups go. I’m basing this off reading many many posts here over the years. It is not considered very accurate though and has some hyped frequencies. I use the ASM and I really can’t tell the difference from my 2x12 cab other than wider dispersement.
Or Xitone solutions
 

FullThrottle64

Inspired
Careful not to equate inaccurate frequency response with subjective terms like “raw”, which can yield an emotional response.

[...]

A good monitor shouldn’t have a sound characteristic, it should be as neutral as possible. Nothing is perfect, but the less it colors the tone, the better. It’s supposed to give you an accurate idea of what the input sounds like.

That is why things like tweeter cuts make zero sense to me. Why have your speaker influence your tone ? People seem to like the L6 becasue it sounds “like a guitar speaker”, but that is just a kind of ignorant way of saying it’s cutting highs.

Well news flash, you can cut highs in the cab block and elsewhere, and then when you send your signal to your monitor, it won’t sound overly harsh et al.

If you send a full frequency signal to a monitor with a high cut it might sound “good”, or more like the rolled off highs of a guitar speaker, but what happens when you think that is actually how you sound ? Send it to a PA or record it and it’s going to sound harsh and tinny, because you don’t have your speaker shaping the sound....

Just makes zero sense to me. Why not have your monitor sound like what your input sounds like ? If it’s too “boomy” “muddy” “harsh” etc, adjust it so the Axe output sounds the way you want.
This!
 

lauke-lux

Fractal Fanatic
I'd prefer the CLR but it is pretty loud and voluminous for a bed-room especially if you want a stereo setup. Maybe juste check a stereo Bluetooth speaker, and use an early reverb or short delay together the enhancer for a "semblant" of room effect whatever that is. I get acceptable results with the Bose Bluetooth speakers, For bedroom playing it will do, but of course your patches tweeked for this use will need to be retweeked for live use.
 

Greg Ferguson

Fractal Fanatic
What gear do you have now?

A Fractal setup, while being a lot of fun, seems like way overkill for a beginner...
Agreed. There’s a steep learning curve learning to play, then learning about amps, pedals, what each do, and that takes years.

Adding a modeler will confuse you and add one more steep learning curve.
 

mr_fender

Axe-Master
Here's the big secret to dead nuts accurate amp in the room tones:

Use real guitar cabs.

It helps to play loud too.

;)
 
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