More Musical Studio Monitors

Why the older Reference 4? In my experience it's largely the same thing as Reference ID. Both are annoyingly buggy products that I would love to recommend if they worked smoothly but I don't have very good things to say about their development pace and even worse for adding user requested features.

Sonarworks also won't be useful for room correction without a reference mic to make the correction measurements in the first place.

The current sound ID has more issues than the Reference 4 does, especially with computer/system wide referencing. I found Reference 4 to be better stability wise and am using it instead of Sound ID (reference 5 so to speak).

Heck you can get a calibration file for a bheringer ecm8000 (which can be had for 50 USD or less). It works well with Sonarworks once you import the calibration file.

James
 
The current sound ID has more issues than the Reference 4 does, especially with computer/system wide referencing. I found Reference 4 to be better stability wise and am using it instead of Sound ID (reference 5 so to speak).
Maybe I should try it again as I do have a license for it. I agree I had less issues with it, aside from crashing every time my computer came out of sleep but I just used an app that would restart the program when it died. I hoped Reference ID would have been an improvement.
 
I'm using a pair of Redsounds 10" and find them very musical, but after I adjusted my AXE III patches appropriately to cut some of the boominess.
 
Okay, so....the reason I asked what I did was...

There really isn't that much of a difference between "studio montiors" and bookshelf hi-fi speakers. To a degree, small studio monitors are made to be listened to when you're physically nearer the speakers, but that isn't necessarily false for bookshelf speakers.

Most speaker manufacturers claim that their speakers are accurate. There's no difference between hi-fi accuracy and studio accuracy. They're accurate or they're not....and when they're not is when preference comes into play (unless you're using accurate speakers with an "incorrect" but preferable target curve).

This whole idea that hifi speakers are made to be more pleasing is BS.....how will one specific EQ curve be pleasing on everything to all listeners? That doesn't really make any sense unless their target curve just happens to match what you want to hear. But, that's not even an "accurate" vs "inaccurate" thing. Those small yamahas are just bumpy and weird, even taking Yamaha's assumed target curve into account (and don't get me started on how much I hate NS-10s).

So, you don't like yamahas or a7x, and both are too bright for you. I'd also stay away from Klipsch, B&W, and ATC. Genelecs, despite how incredibly well they measure, have always given me a bit of that bright/fatiguing thing too....but I've only ever really listened to the small ones years ago. I did not enjoy them at all....but I didn't set up that room and it was one pile of problems on top of another, especially now that I know more about what matters.

I'm pretty sure you're going to have to demo a few. I certainly did, and I did not wind up with the speakers I thought I would.....the ones I kept, I bought on a whim with the intention to return them just to say I tried. After correction, they're incredible for the money.

One thing to try before you go down the speaker rabbit hole....is the bass really uneven? If it is, it's worth playing with just speaker positioning. It's possible that you just happen to be sitting in a bit of a bass null, which is going to make everything sound overly bright. If any of your room dimensions are around 10-18 feet, that's somewhat likely and going to be especially problematic for guitars. You can do a good bit by moving speakers around if you can....but the easiest way to fix that is shoving a pair of subwoofers in opposite room corners and doing the things you need to do to integrate them.

If you just want to try speakers and can take the time to demo them....try KRK, maybe Dynaudio, JBL, or Revel. I never liked working on KRKs, but a LOT of people like their generally scooped and bassy sound. Dynaudios generally roll off a little early. They, JBL, and Revel tend to be pretty to very accurate, but they tend to follow a more tilted target curve that most people (including me) prefer. I have really enjoyed every Neumann I've ever heard, but it seems like I like a slightly brighter sound than you do.

If you do want to try Sonarworks, you probably want to try the B&K 1974 target curve as a starting point, though it still might be a little bright for you. It's fine software, though the measurement process takes about half an hour and is a bit of a pain. Dirac Live, Acourate, and Trinnov are all better for various reasons. Acourate and Trinnov are the cream of the crop, but Dirac Live isn't far behind. Sonarworks is pretty far behind all of them. Acourate is the hardest to use, by far. Trinnov is the easiest to use (which is why it's so expensive), but Dirac Live with a MiniDSP box isn't that hard (and will probably be my next step)....and either MiniDSP or Trinnov will also take care of the subwoofer integration. They all require a measurement mic, and all of them other than Sonarworks suggest using a mic stand. The Trinnov measurment mic is absolutely amazing....but it alone is like $800, and no, you can't substitute anything else for it. It's the only one that works the way it does.
 
Just my personal 2 Cent. I tried a few monitors and to me the Yamaha HS7/HS8 already are more „musical“ than other monitors. They do color the sound in a good way (maybe that’s why the are so popular). Near everything does sound „better“ (subjective) through them in comparison to a more neutral sounding monitor.
 
Aside from studio monitors, have you looked at a pair of Meyer MJF-212s? That's what I'd get.
Hmmmmm... although they're a good set of "ear darts" for in-your-face live use I would have a hard time describing them as "low fatigue". That said, I think you're on the right track if OP's space can handle larger/more powerful solutions. I'd also question the use of floor wedges in a typical low-ceiling height environment – but again, high quality self-powered high-fidelity PA speakers could be just the ticket.
 
Have you tried adding a sub? It makes a big difference. I know what you are talking about with the HS7's or HS8's in my case being fatiguing. I would think the 7 inch speakers would be a little more so. I demoes the 5's and there was no way. A ten or twelve inch sub will fill it in nicely but you don't want it turned up too much in the mix. It's easy to over do it.
 
Hmmmmm... although they're a good set of "ear darts" for in-your-face live use I would have a hard time describing them as "low fatigue". That said, I think you're on the right track if OP's space can handle larger/more powerful solutions. I'd also question the use of floor wedges in a typical low-ceiling height environment – but again, high quality self-powered high-fidelity PA speakers could be just the ticket.
Since we are talking about stuff like this....

What about a used set of JBL LSR 32s or similar?

I still have mine and setting up presets on them is good. They are great for getting the high end and low end just right. They are also fun to play through since they have the 12" drivers and can feel close to cab. They can be hard to deal with, without some treatment, though.

James
 
Have you tried adding a sub? It makes a big difference. I know what you are talking about with the HS7's or HS8's in my case being fatiguing. I would think the 7 inch speakers would be a little more so. I demoes the 5's and there was no way. A ten or twelve inch sub will fill it in nicely but you don't want it turned up too much in the mix. It's easy to over do it.
Listening fatigue is often an indication of MR/HF distortion and/or phase anomalies. My experience is that a lot of smaller speakers utilize smaller HF devices (usually to meet a price point their size demands) and end up getting pushed too hard – and since distortion is the audible result of strain in an acoustic transducer, they tend to both "hype" the high-end sound and increase the fatigue you experience over time. A lot of studios (pro, home or otherwise) choose to use ATC monitors because their soft-dome MR/HF devices are very low distortion/fatigue. Obviously there is a cost associated with those extremely high-quality transducers, but I could see where something like SCM100's would be a super choice b/c their 12" LF driver is an appropriate "guitar" size and their soft-dome MR/HF are smooth yet present. Inexpensive? No. Worth what they cost? Oh, yes...
 
This whole idea that hifi speakers are made to be more pleasing is BS.....how will one specific EQ curve be pleasing on everything to all listeners?

I don't have controverting evidence, but briefly looking at super high-end Hi-Fi boxes vs mastering monitors ... is there a lot of overlap?

I would agree that 'studio monitors' in application means 'whatever speaker I'm used to, and can make informed choices'.

I'd also suggest along with others, that your room and position mean more than your speakers if they don't suck.
 
I currently have a pair of Yamaha HS7s and though I suppose they get the job done I am wondering if there are a more MUSICAL set of home monitors I could be looking at?

By 'musical' I mean I am willing to sacrifice accuracy and clinical transparency for a pair of speakers that just make my Axe sound as good as it can - but still with some sense of realism so it can effectively reflect all the Axe has to offer.

I don't really have a budget in mind - I am fortunate not to necessarily have a fixed number in mind that I am thinking about (though I guess something like $25k might be excessive lol) - provided the speakers really did sound that great with the Axe and just playing music.

Someone had recommended Focal Twins to me when I asked them about this...others have suggested something from ATC...but i don't know if there are others that would fit the bill better.

thoughts?

I upgraded from HS7s to HS8s and it is night and day. HS7 has a very bite-y sound to it and HS8 is much smoother. I'm not sure how else to explain it but it was a very big improvement.
 
There's no difference between hi-fi accuracy and studio accuracy.
Accuracy is accuracy if you're talking about frequency response. But, if there was no difference between studio monitors and hi-fi speakers, then why to studio's spend $50k on a set of monitors? Why not just put a couple Kef's in each corner and call it a day? Hi-fi speakers have zero built in room correction and are rarely capable of presenting a flat frequency response in any space, even a treated one, unless you apply some type of DSP room correction. Most people who listen to hi-fi speakers and studio monitors back to back are surprised at the "lack of bass" the studio monitors have. But it's not a lack of bass, it's the flat presentation the studio monitors are capable of, due in large part to their built-in boundary correction. You're also missing a big piece that is often (always?) included when talking about accuracy in studio monitors and that's the detail, or resolution, studio monitors are capable of.
 
I don't have controverting evidence, but briefly looking at super high-end Hi-Fi boxes vs mastering monitors ... is there a lot of overlap?

I would agree that 'studio monitors' in application means 'whatever speaker I'm used to, and can make informed choices'.

I'd also suggest along with others, that your room and position mean more than your speakers if they don't suck.
Yep.

In dedicated mastering rooms, you'll see PMCs, ATCs, Neumanns, Genelecs, Barefoots, sometimes Dyanudio or JBL monitors....lots of high-end (or high-end-ish) studio speakers. But, you'll also see B&W and Kef, ATC, PMC, and Dyanduio's hi-fi range...Dunlavy, Lapinski, Revel, Tyler Acoustics...a lot of Emotiva, Bryston, and NAD amplifiers....a lot of them use hifi DACs for the monitor path as well. You'll find a lot of Audezee headphones, more than most of the studio staples.

There's really not that much difference at that level except preferences (e.g., I have no idea why people like ATC or B&W for critical listening...but I also just don't like their target curves). Some of those preferences are too far off from accurate, though. You won't find Klipsch speakers in mastering rooms, for example. Their target curve is way too far off to ever be useful in that context. You won't find KRKs for the same reason.

Nothing is really different with more budget-friendly (or just not crazy expensive) speakers except that there are bookshelf hi-fi speakers that don't quite work as nearfields. The reason hi-fi stuff comes up more in mastering rooms than small home studios is mostly that mastering isn't really a nearfield thing, plus just a different version of the traditions.....there are a good number of really fantastic mastering engineers who believe in a shocking amount of snake oil.
 
Yep.

In dedicated mastering rooms, you'll see PMCs, ATCs, Neumanns, Genelecs, Barefoots, sometimes Dyanudio or JBL monitors....lots of high-end (or high-end-ish) studio speakers. But, you'll also see B&W and Kef, ATC, PMC, and Dyanduio's hi-fi range...Dunlavy, Lapinski, Revel, Tyler Acoustics...a lot of Emotiva, Bryston, and NAD amplifiers....a lot of them use hifi DACs for the monitor path as well. You'll find a lot of Audezee headphones, more than most of the studio staples.
Engineering, mixing and mastering are different disciplines. Mastering is making the recording sound good regardless of playback media and equipment, so they use what normal listeners would use... hence the hi-fi, and home audio speakers.
 
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