More headroom at gig vs. at home using the same output settings?

boyce89976

Experienced
Absolutely loving the Axe III! Have used it live twice now, and noticed something yesterday that has me puzzled... I had significantly more headroom live yesterday than I have at home, using the exact same settings, and I'm not sure why. It was so noticeable, that I was able to increase the Input Drive on the Matchless DC30 EF86 from 1.8 to 2.2 to mimic the headroom I have at home. That's a fairly significant jump on that amp model and takes it from relatively clean to breaking up.

All settings in the Axe were the same, including the output level. I run my pedalboard in stereo in front using the front input and the 2R input on the back, and used the same connections in both locations (same cables, same inputs). Input level on the I/O page is 15% for input 1, and 50% for input 2 (this is perfectly balanced L/R for me). Output is set to -10dBu for both outputs.

The only differences between home and the venue yesterday are:
  • At home I run XLR out to a pair of Kali LP6 studio monitors
  • At the venue, I ran XLR out to the FOH console. The signal then hits the console's mic gain stage, and then goes directly to Dante, then to LiveMix to our in ears monitors (this takes the rest of the board's channel strip, including effects and fader level, out of the equation).
  • The increase in headroom was apparent both through FOH and through my IEMs.

Anyone have any theories on why that would be the case with everything on the Axe III being equal in both locations.

Pics of my setup for attention:
IMG_0229 copy.jpgIMG_0228.JPG
 
It’s easy to hit the guitar with different intensity at home vs at the gig.
Yeah, but it's not that.

What I experienced was my overdrives had a bigger increase in overall volume change at the gig vs at home (all settings being equal). For example, when I stacked drive 2 (the green one) on top of drive 1 (the gold one) I have it set for an expected volume increase. That increase was more at the gig than at home.
 
Yeah, but it's not that.

What I experienced was my overdrives had a bigger increase in overall volume change at the gig vs at home (all settings being equal). For example, when I stacked drive 2 (the green one) on top of drive 1 (the gold one) I have it set for an expected volume increase. That increase was more at the gig than at home.
Are you at the same measured dB at home vs at the gig?

Things change from bedroom volume to gig volume. Pretty common.
 
In my experience, differences in volume are more noticeable in louder situations. I have no idea why your IEM's would seem very different though. On the hardware side of things, unless some settings changed there is no reason for levels to differ.
 
What you may be experiencing is your home monitors are less powerful than the FOH, so they will have less head room. Your In Ears are going to reproduce what's coming from FOH. Think 15 watt amp vs. 50 or 100 watt amp. There may not be an enormous volume gain, but the breakup is going to be quicker on the 15 watt amp. So at home you have the gain from the Amp block in the AXE combined with the breakup in the monitors. Live you didn't have that breakup, so the signal was cleaner, translating into less distortion. That's my guess.
 
Thanks for the responses!

Are you at the same measured dB at home vs at the gig?

Things change from bedroom volume to gig volume. Pretty common.
No, not the same volume at home. But, I noticed a difference in how much the amp volume increased (or output from the Axe), when I turned on each of my overdrive pedals. I've been a Kemper user for 2 years and never saw that with the Kemper.

To be specific: At home, I lowered the amp Input Drive from 2.2 to 1.8 to get the volume increase I wanted with my clean boost pedal. At the gig, the volume increase was too much, and I had to raise the Input Drive back to 2.2 from 1.8 to get the volume increase I wanted. Weird?

In my experience, differences in volume are more noticeable in louder situations. I have no idea why your IEM's would seem very different though. On the hardware side of things, unless some settings changed there is no reason for levels to differ.
Yeah, I'm stumped. I monitor quite a bit through IEM's at home also (through a UA interface into Logic) and never experienced such a difference in headroom.

What you may be experiencing is your home monitors are less powerful than the FOH, so they will have less head room. Your In Ears are going to reproduce what's coming from FOH. Think 15 watt amp vs. 50 or 100 watt amp. There may not be an enormous volume gain, but the breakup is going to be quicker on the 15 watt amp. So at home you have the gain from the Amp block in the AXE combined with the breakup in the monitors. Live you didn't have that breakup, so the signal was cleaner, translating into less distortion. That's my guess.
Hmmm, you may be onto something. I don't run loud at home... maybe 80dB (I'll measure it) but the LP6's are rated at 85dB continuous output with 112dB max SPL, almost 30dB of headroom, so it would seem there's enough headroom in the monitors?

Different speakers will have different eq and this will increase or decrease the perceived gain (distortion) in a patch...also perceived effects levels as well.
We use IEM's so I noticed it more in my IEMs than I did through FOH. Our IEM mix is a direct feed off the FOH console mic pre gain (before everything, EQ, FX, faders, etc...) so there's not much going on to effect it at FOH except the gain knob (which was at +2).

The outputs on the Axe are set to -10dB, but I just read in the manual for my monitors I should be using +4dB for the XLR outputs. So perhaps it's something with the monitors but sending the XLR inputs -10dB instead of the expected +4dB?
 
when things are louder in the room, we tend to hit the guitar quieter. i'm sure it's just that. new rig, new levels, etc. i'm pretty sure nothing changed except how hard you were hitting the guitar, which made it feel like there was more headroom. again, this is very common from home to gig.

to me, a 0.4 change from 1.8 to 2.2 isn't that drastic of a change and seems about right from home to gig. that's why there are global controls as well for effects mix and i think even amp drive. things change.
 
when things are louder in the room, we tend to hit the guitar quieter. i'm sure it's just that. new rig, new levels, etc. i'm pretty sure nothing changed except how hard you were hitting the guitar, which made it feel like there was more headroom. again, this is very common from home to gig.

to me, a 0.4 change from 1.8 to 2.2 isn't that drastic of a change and seems about right from home to gig. that's why there are global controls as well for effects mix and i think even amp drive. things change.
Maybe. I pretty much beat the crap out of it no matter where I'm playing, haha.
 
I suspect it's simple compression on your mixer and/or LiveMix. You might be pre-fader and pre-effects, but not pre-EQ and or compression. Depending on the Mixer, the Direct Out (to your Dante) might be fixed, global or dynamic per fader. Gut-feel is post EQ, pre-fader. I'd pull up the docs for the FOH mixer if you have it. Also, these little LiveMix modules have their own compression/dynamics per channel as well.

I personally mix a system like this into my Axe III and blend in my direct guitar sound instead.
 
Absolutely loving the Axe III! Have used it live twice now, and noticed something yesterday that has me puzzled... I had significantly more headroom live yesterday than I have at home, using the exact same settings, and I'm not sure why.

The only differences between home and the venue yesterday are:
  • At home I run XLR out to a pair of Kali LP6 studio monitors
  • At the venue, I ran XLR out to the FOH console.
Anyone have any theories on why that would be the case with everything on the Axe III being equal in both locations.

A few possibilities.
1. It's your imagination.
2. The PA you are playing through live has more head room than the monitors you are using at home.
3. You need to dial in your presets at gig volume with the band if possible.

One thing I noticed long ago when I first started using the Axe FXII years ago is that I could dial in presets that sounded great in the studio, but with the band live they sounded different. I eventually figured out I needed to fine tune the presets at full volume with the band to get the results I wanted.

Another thing I noticed is that when playing at home or in the studio, clean sounds in particular never sound right unless I dial them in while playing at or above a certain volume level.
 
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i'm not disputing your experience, but having used that exact model for almost the entirety of owning the AxeII and now the III, 1.8 to 2.2 isn't really that big of a difference. I'm guessing it was more the acoustic reinforcement of playing at gig volume making you need a little less than anything to do with the unit.
 
I suspect it's simple compression on your mixer and/or LiveMix. You might be pre-fader and pre-effects, but not pre-EQ and or compression. Depending on the Mixer, the Direct Out (to your Dante) might be fixed, global or dynamic per fader. Gut-feel is post EQ, pre-fader. I'd pull up the docs for the FOH mixer if you have it. Also, these little LiveMix modules have their own compression/dynamics per channel as well.

I personally mix a system like this into my Axe III and blend in my direct guitar sound instead.
Thanks for the reply. We use a Yamaha CL5, and I'm pretty sure the send to Dante is pre-EQ and pre-fader. On live mix, I have a saved preset for my ears with no compression, no EQ and no reverb. I also set the global EQ and compression for my guitar channels at zero, or off.

I think I may figured out part of the problem last night. I had the Axe III's outputs set to -10dB and I think maybe the way the board handled that level, vs. my studio monitors (which are expecting +4dB at the XLR inputs) was the difference. Not sure why that would make a difference unless the amps in the Kali's couldn't adjust appropriately to the lower input level?
A few possibilities.
1. It's your imagination.
2. The PA you are playing through live has more head room than the monitors you are using at home.
3. You need to dial in your presets at gig volume with the band if possible.

One thing I noticed long ago when I first started using the Axe FXII years ago is that I could dial in presets that sounded great in the studio, but with the band live they sounded different. I eventually figured out I needed to fine tune the presets at full volume with the band to get the results I wanted.

Another thing I noticed is that when playing at home or in the studio, clean sounds in particular never sound right unless I dial them in while playing at or above a certain volume level.
Thanks for the reply. It was in my ears that I noticed the increase in headroom. And the tone was great, I'm speaking strictly from a headroom perspective - how the amp model reacted to drives on my pedalboard. Having owned Kemper for a couple of years, I've made a point not to do anything drastic to the amp models in Axe III... I figure, they should sound good out of the box. On the Match D-30 EF86 model I have the tone (bass) +1 from stock (at 6 instead of 5) and the high treble +3 from the stock -0- setting. Gain at 2.2 from the stock setting of 4, I think. It sounds fantastic and has gotten great reviews from two different sound guys... so it's not a tone issue.
i'm not disputing your experience, but having used that exact model for almost the entirety of owning the AxeII and now the III, 1.8 to 2.2 isn't really that big of a difference. I'm guessing it was more the acoustic reinforcement of playing at gig volume making you need a little less than anything to do with the unit.
Thanks for the reply! Are you running a full pedalboard in front (I am)? I agree it's not a big difference in the break up of the amp model, but when pushing the amp with outboard drives, it's a fairly significant change in how the amp reacts.
 
Thanks for the reply! Are you running a full pedalboard in front (I am)? I agree it's not a big difference in the break up of the amp model, but when pushing the amp with outboard drives, it's a fairly significant change in how the amp reacts.

sorry, missed that detail, i'm running all Axe III
 
Thanks for the reply. We use a Yamaha CL5, and I'm pretty sure the send to Dante is pre-EQ and pre-fader. On live mix, I have a saved preset for my ears with no compression, no EQ and no reverb. I also set the global EQ and compression for my guitar channels at zero, or off.

The defaults for the Yamaha appear to be pre-fader (After EQ & Dynamics according to their docs). This is the most common setup. I can't imagine sending a mix to IEMs without this, it would sound harsh for vocals, drums, non-modelers, etc. This might not be the main problem, but I suspect it's influencing what you hear to a degree.
 
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