Missing tube amps or just a bad gig??

rocknroling

rocknroling

Inspired
I am still not sure if I was just having an off night of if I am missing good quality tube amps? The last couple shows have just been a bit off for me. My guitar does not have any sustain and just seems to be really thin sounding when I listen to the recording from the night. I think the biggest issue is the lack of sound pressure on stage. I miss the way when you hold a note, the amp just makes the string ring out. Last weekend it just felt like the noise of the other strings was drowning my notes out and everything just sounded sloppy. I didn't help that the bar owner were constantly bitching to turn down (keep in mind, all guitars, basses and drums were digital, so there was NO stage volume). You couldn't even hear yourself from the front of house speakers. We all run in ears so at least we could hear ourselves through our mix but it still made for a long gig.

The other part of the gig that was really rough was user errors on my MFC 101. At least 2 to 3 times a gig I will go to hit the solo patch and hit the Bank Down button at the same time and then I have some crazy factory patch from the 300's blowing my ears out because it is set louder. Of course I am running in Scene mode so I can't just bank back up and go back, I have to jump to a clean tone, go back into scene mode and then go back to the solo button. I have been begging for and update that would make you have to hold down the bank buttons like you can do for the edit button. Never had this problem with my G System or Ground Control Pro. I wear size 13 shoes and these 2 1/2 inch button spacing's are killing me!

Does anyone else get these temptations to go back to the dark side?? I switched over to the Axe FX II when I got tired of lugging around heavy pedal boards, cabinets and amp heads. I love being able to carry my amp in a two space rack and pedal board to gigs and rehearsals in one trip. I love the tone I have, I just miss the feel of the amps. I have tried running a powered monitor, but it's still not the same. Plus it beats the purpose of not hauling all this gear when you then start carrying powered speakers, rack bag and pedalboard around. I really only run about 4 patches; clean w/chorus(Mesa Lonestar clean), semi dirty (Divided by 13), crunchy (Splawn) and heavy (Freyette).

Would investing in a Atomic, or Gemini amp give me the feel I am looking for, or should I look for a small tube power amp and cabinet?
 
G'day
Thats a hard one - turning down from the volume you are used to (whether on stage or IEMs etc) certainly can affect your perception of quality. Also, your enjoyment! I'm not sure investing in amplification options will help your venue managers volume problem either. You're not going to replace the feeling of 4 12 inch speakers blowing at you with IEMs... ever. I'd suggest trying to work with the sounds you have at stage volume with the band. Perhaps dedicate a practice session or two specifically to sound chasing. May be worth it.

Good luck
Pauly
 
Yeah that awesome "swimming in sound waves" feel you get from playing through cranked cabs can be addictive and is definitely lacking when playing through headphones or IEM's. Those sympathetic vibrations are hard to get without high SPL's. Need some kind of little wireless resonant motor that clamps to the guitar to provide that response at low volumes. Sort of like a clamp on tuner, but it would vibrate instead providing feedback. Hmm. Call the patent office...

Damn someone beat me to it...

http://www.sustainiac.com
 
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rocknroling said:
I am still not sure if I was just having an off night of if I am missing good quality tube amps? The last couple shows have just been a bit off for me. My guitar does not have any sustain and just seems to be really thin sounding when I listen to the recording from the night. I think the biggest issue is the lack of sound pressure on stage. I miss the way when you hold a note, the amp just makes the string ring out. Last weekend it just felt like the noise of the other strings was drowning my notes out and everything just sounded sloppy. I didn't help that the bar owner were constantly bitching to turn down (keep in mind, all guitars, basses and drums were digital, so there was NO stage volume). You couldn't even hear yourself from the front of house speakers. We all run in ears so at least we could hear ourselves through our mix but it still made for a long gig.

The other part of the gig that was really rough was user errors on my MFC 101. At least 2 to 3 times a gig I will go to hit the solo patch and hit the Bank Down button at the same time and then I have some crazy factory patch from the 300's blowing my ears out because it is set louder. Of course I am running in Scene mode so I can't just bank back up and go back, I have to jump to a clean tone, go back into scene mode and then go back to the solo button. I have been begging for and update that would make you have to hold down the bank buttons like you can do for the edit button. Never had this problem with my G System or Ground Control Pro. I wear size 13 shoes and these 2 1/2 inch button spacing's are killing me!

Does anyone else get these temptations to go back to the dark side?? I switched over to the Axe FX II when I got tired of lugging around heavy pedal boards, cabinets and amp heads. I love being able to carry my amp in a two space rack and pedal board to gigs and rehearsals in one trip. I love the tone I have, I just miss the feel of the amps. I have tried running a powered monitor, but it's still not the same. Plus it beats the purpose of not hauling all this gear when you then start carrying powered speakers, rack bag and pedalboard around. I really only run about 4 patches; clean w/chorus(Mesa Lonestar clean), semi dirty (Divided by 13), crunchy (Splawn) and heavy (Freyette).

Would investing in a Atomic, or Gemini amp give me the feel I am looking for, or should I look for a small tube power amp and cabinet?
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I get tons of sustain and interaction with my Axe and FRFR cabs. I just got the Atomic CLR's and I'm having a better time with my setup now then with tubes. I also have the Friedman ASM-12 FRFR cabs and they are really big and guitar cab sounding. Speakers aside, some people have trouble and can't seem to make the switch. Maybe it's not for you. I can't imagine it though. Go back and see what you are missing maybe. Good luck.
 
Haven't noticed a lack of sustain or thin sound here. I have been using mine every weekend since the beginning of the year. This last firmware with the new output transformer modelling especially.
 
A couple of things I thought of when I read your post.
1. In the situation where the bar owner is complaining about your volume and wants you to turn down... how do you suppose a tube amp on stage would HELP that situation? I mean... tube amps only act like tube amps once they reach a certain volume... so I can't see that being a solution.
2. You said you were on IEMs, and personally I have struggled with IEMs as well. You didn't say what system you are using, but I think you have to be running some decent to high end gear with IEMs to get a good quality sound. I find a lot lacking with my system (Carvin EM900) in terms of a good, connected feeling to my guitar. I MUCH prefer my CLR's. IEM's are a necessity for me though, but I pull one or both out when I can to play from my monitor.
3. My AXE through CLR's are every bit as good as my Mesa Mark V. Every bit, and better I would say. I use 2, and monitoring in stereo is awesome. Of course, I hate lugging those things around, but they are worth it to me. I play songs where I need sustain and feedback, and with the CLR's I get it with ease.
4. As for the MFC issues. I had those problems too. The switches on the MFC are a little tight for my tastes. I prefer the spacing on my old Ground Control Pro. I never really made mistakes with it, but it lacks the functionality. Here are a few things I did to make life better... maybe one or two of these will help you... or maybe not. They are a little "outside the box", so you might not like these ideas.
A.Shoe choice became important. No more boots for me. Had to go with Converse All Stars as my only on stage shoe choice. Otherwise.. foot switch mistakes. It was like playing guitar with gloves on with hard shoes...
B. I cut a short piece of 3/4" PVC pipe, painted it black, and siliconed over my EDIT switch. It prevents me from hitting it on accident, which I did a few times.
C. I used a similar technique with a piece of plexiglass, and I used plexiglass cement to make a little T piece, (upside down, so the T is the base) and made a short "wall" between my scene 5 button and the up/down switches. It's just enough to prevent the mistake you speak of, but I can still access the up/down with my foot.
D. I use a bank size of zero, and my scenes are always on the bottom 4 switches. No "reveal" switch for me. Up/down cycles through presets.
E. I got creative with my scenes to avoid ever needing scene 5. 4 is more than enough for me, and I never go near that #5 button any more, which kind of eliminated the need for the little wall, but it's a redundant set of protections now. 1 is my "Intro" scene, and whatever the songs starts with, it's on scene 1. Some songs never leave there. 2. is "Main", and is like the verse or rhythm sound. 3 is lead, or a hotter or wetter version of 2, and 4 is solo. That's it.
E. finally, (and this one is out there and probably not for many people)... I recently made the jump to hyperspace and I use Ableton Live and a midi interface (MOTU) to control all of my MFC101 work. It's like my own guitar tech, and when we cue up a song (using an MFC extension) it sets my preset, and makes all of my scene changes for me. Of course... we play to a click to do all of that, so again, not for everyone. But I DO LOVE being free to go where ever I may roam, and not have to be at my pedal board. I rarely touch the MFC during a set now. Just some expression or volume pedal stuff. It was a bitch to set up, but now life is sweet.
 
rocknroling said:
I am still not sure if I was just having an off night of if I am missing good quality tube amps? The last couple shows have just been a bit off for me. My guitar does not have any sustain and just seems to be really thin sounding when I listen to the recording from the night.
Click to expand...
It was working fine for you previously, right? What has changed in the last couple of shows? That's where the answer lies.


rocknroling said:
I think the biggest issue is the lack of sound pressure on stage. I miss the way when you hold a note, the amp just makes the string ring out.
Click to expand...
That can change everything, as others have said.


rocknroling said:
Last weekend it just felt like the noise of the other strings was drowning my notes out and everything just sounded sloppy.
Click to expand...
That happens where your hands meet your guitar. No amp can fix that—only technique.


rocknroling said:
Would investing in a Atomic, or Gemini amp give me the feel I am looking for, or should I look for a small tube power amp and cabinet?
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Not if you can't turn them up, at least a little.
 
I tried for two years to gig with a pair of CLRs, did they sound great? yes amazing, was I happy? No! I have spent 20 years standing in front of quads. One gig I said fu*k it and took a power amp and a marshall quad box. Best gig ever, did it sound any good? not really, was I happy, hell yes, nothing makes me more happier than chugin a riff and having a quad box hit you in the chest. The band was feeling it and so was the crowd. Its not always about tone and the pursuit of sonic perfection. Clrs now live in the studio and quad box gigs on :)
 
Severed said:
Even with IEM'S having a small monitor for guitar/speaker interaction is crucial IMO.
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^^This
When we do the larger gigs I'm on IEMs, much like most of the band. I still have the CLR on the floor in front of me so I can get some interaction going, plus it's always there as a safety net if anything goes wrong with the IEMs :)
 
I've been running a compressor in the chain to help the sustain a bit. Having a semi acoustic Duesenberg Starplayer TV helps in getting feedback and interaction easily. I am running small monitors, not in-ears, but they are not set very loud.

I don't feel like I'm missing any sustain.

Maybe check the layout menu input noise gate settings, I/O menu input page, Global menu amp gain...
 
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As a Fractal user for the past 7 years whom has tried to switch back to real amps several times......all I can say is.....I always ran back to the Axe Fx. Too convenient and I know how to get most sounds very quickly. I have 10 presets and 7 IA switches, 3 expression pedals and run one Faslink XLR cord out to the stage front.....EASY. Noise gate = awesome. Hard to beat man. Learn the device and you will reap the rewards!
 
I like what Rotaholic wrote... and I get where the OP is going.. I too missed the real amp for a bit; to the point where greed has gotten the better of me.

I've got the Axe-ii with an active wedge which does the job very well.
I've got an ENGL power amp (50w x 2) with a 2x12 cab with the Axe-ii, which also does the job very well..
AND, I've recently connected up both the active wedge AS WELL AS the ENGL power amp so I've got a stereo rig; one half is FRFR the other half is 'old school'.... and together they compliment each other really well!

The moral of my input as far as this thread goes, I like to be able to revert back to old ways if and when I want to... maybe you want the same? It's handy if you have a few different ways of cranking your rig..
 
(Again, not my mother tongue, so excuse me if i make mistakes) ;)

In my experience, the real struggle is when you have to decide what do you want:

- To have a really good sound for the audience.

- To have really good sound for yourself.

I guess that some people are gonna say right now "You can have both!!". IMHO that´s not entirely true. When you build a sound for yourself you wanna have a (select what you like: wide, open, thick, full...) sound (of course). But most cases that´s not what the mix with the band needs. So you have to "sacrifice" your sound for the better good.

If you have a tube amp, you can´t control what´s going on outside the stage (the techs have all the control in the mixer console), and sometimes you´re having the best sound but the audience is listening the worst becouse of those techs. Again, if this is what you want, ok.

With the Axe Fx you can have true control of what´s gonna sound outside the stage. And sometimes, unless you make your presets with 2 separate sounds, 1 for your monitor and 1 for the PA, you´re gonna listen the "final" sound for the audience, and it´s gonna sound really different from what you expected. That´s the hard way, to work hard to have the best sound, and sometimes is not possible (gear, techs, etc.) to have both things.


Best Regards.
 
First off, not sure I would ever go back and play at a bar where they want you at coffee house levels. 2nd, I have no issues with string noise or sustain... and I am still very new to this unit, had it maybe 2 months tops. When you set up your patches, did you set them up for stage volume, or your bedroom. I have found myself tweaking patches after turning up louder than when they were made. 3rd, you have the MFC 101...it's programmable! MOVE THE SOLO BUTTON! I have size 13 feet also, so I have to rethink where I place things, and tend to keep less used presets closer to the main switches. Joe
 
I also used to use switch # 5 as my solo boost. I would constantly step on the down button by mistake.
I ended up using a Boss FS6 pedal to do this instead. I also plug my 1/4" output to a small 150 Behringer
active monitor that sits on a microphone stand pointed right at my head because I can't hear me coming
out the FOH or IEM's.
 
Joero6 said:
First off, not sure I would ever go back and play at a bar where they want you at coffee house levels. 2nd, I have no issues with string noise or sustain... and I am still very new to this unit, had it maybe 2 months tops. When you set up your patches, did you set them up for stage volume, or your bedroom. I have found myself tweaking patches after turning up louder than when they were made. 3rd, you have the MFC 101...it's programmable! MOVE THE SOLO BUTTON! I have size 13 feet also, so I have to rethink where I place things, and tend to keep less used presets closer to the main switches. Joe
Click to expand...

My tones go from clean to dirty from left to right. And you want me to change that? MADNESS!! LOL! As far as the sustain thing goes, it is fine if I am running really high gain stuff, but I have been running more medium gain tone, or my low gain Divided by 13 amp channel with the BB Preamp in front of it. I guess I am still used to running a Fender Twin with a TS9 in front of it. Not crazy overdriven, but it will ring out no problem.

I think a lot of it was just that gig. and the rehearsals before it. For a live band, we are pretty quiet, and I have had plenty of other bar owners praise us for our low stage volume (and that was with REAL drums! We only used the electronic drums because we knew they were overly critical on sound volume) I think this place may be crossed off of our list of bars we want to keep working with. I had a MP3 recorder in the room with the two mics in the front. and I can almost understand every word of all the conversations in the room while the band is playing. Pretty sad. We didn't buy QSC K Subs to NOT use them! LOL! Thanks for the feedback everyone. I think I just need to spend (even) more time getting the tones where I want them. I still think a FRFR speaker like a stage monitor pointed back at me may help get the feeling I am missing.
 
I also love the sound of tube amps and wish FAS had a product that could fully integrate with my amps, unfortunately I think nothing is going to change on this front because the development cost probably out weigh the benefits for FAS or they think that is the case. So I use the Torpedo Studio in concert with the AxeFx, let the Torpedo Studio capture your amps tone then run it thru the AxeFx to make use of all the processing power in the AxeFx.
 
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