MIDI time sync problems

jdosher

jdosher

Inspired
I'm working on a system to trigger some backing tracks from Ableton Live and I want my Axe-Fx's tempo to be synced to the DAW. I'm having some issues with MIDI time synchronization though. I can select a tempo in Ableton and it'll send that tempo to the Axe; however, there are a couple issues:

1) The tempo on the Axe will jump around for a few seconds before settling on the correct BPM. If I send 120bpm from Live, the tempo will jump to 118, 121, 119, then finally to 120. Sometimes the jumps are even more radical - it might jump to 20bpm, then 140, etc.
2) The Axe metronome doesn't always lock in phase with the master clock. If I use the looper in the Axe and enable quantization, the loop beginning and end points won't sync up with Live.
3) Because the Axe isn't locked into the master clock, the tap-tempo LED doesn't provide a true visual metronome (which I and/or another band member occasionally rely on, especially to start a couple of the songs)

I've also tried this with Cubase and I get similar behavior. I've read that there are some issues with the Axe-Fx's MIDI implementation in terms of external devices, but I'm not sure how old my info is. Regardless, this is really throwing a wrench into setting this system up. Generally our drummer uses a metronome in-ear, and I have the BPM set in the patch for each song so my delays are synched (and the looper in one song). As we're working out syching up me (the Axe and the Axe's looper), a click track over to the drummer, Ableton Live, and the ability for the drummer to tap-tempo when needed for certain songs - not having the Axe sync up is pretty much leaving us dead in the water.


Btw, my understand of some of the MIDI limitations were/are such:
The Axe won't send MIDI time code
The MFC-101 won't send or receive MIDI over its ports when using the RJ45/Faslink connection (not entirely relevant to this discussion, but I guess that scraps the idea I occasionally have about integrating my TimeLine on my pedal board with the MFC)
The Axe has general issues passing MIDI clock out the Thru port, as well as sometimes scrambling messages between other pieces of gear if it's sitting between them.
 
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Axe's metronome system is very BADLY programmed, it does NOT sync to the right beat (it cannot set the first beat in moment), it only adjusts its own BPM and that's all.
However the integrated sequencer controller is out of beat control too (to its own metronome) .... so axe is not suitable for live performances with playbacks etc....
WTF is going on Fractal Audio ? Will you ever fix this issue ?!?!?
All we need is to match the tempo and the beat of device to incoming midi beat clock !!
Why every (a lot) cheaper products have this implemented but not axe ?
 
I've had my Axe FX2 for nearly three months now, so I've not yet applied myself to the midi sync side. Mainly just experimenting with amps and getting to know how to create the basics for the tones I like.

But I have to say this concerns me. I will need to have my system closely locked to Ableton and I really hope I won't have any issues. I know I'm jumping the gun as I haven't got to that stage yet. But I have noticed that the Axe seems sluggish to pick up tempo changes when I'm using Axe Edit. Maybe this is just Axe Exit.

Anyway, I would appreciate any users who can contribute to chime in, if they wouldn't mind?

BTW: I absolutely love this thing. Tried it in Tokyo in 2013 (no demo units in the UK - thank you Japanese shopping ethos!) and spent two years telling myself I shouldn't get one. I was wrong.
 
jdosher said:
I'm working on a system to trigger some backing tracks from Ableton Live and I want my Axe-Fx's tempo to be synced to the DAW. I'm having some issues with MIDI time synchronization though. I can select a tempo in Ableton and it'll send that tempo to the Axe; however, there are a couple issues:

1) The tempo on the Axe will jump around for a few seconds before settling on the correct BPM. If I send 120bpm from Live, the tempo will jump to 118, 121, 119, then finally to 120. Sometimes the jumps are even more radical - it might jump to 20bpm, then 140, etc.
2) The Axe metronome doesn't always lock in phase with the master clock. If I use the looper in the Axe and enable quantization, the loop beginning and end points won't sync up with Live.
3) Because the Axe isn't locked into the master clock, the tap-tempo LED doesn't provide a true visual metronome (which I and/or another band member occasionally rely on, especially to start a couple of the songs)

I've also tried this with Cubase and I get similar behavior. I've read that there are some issues with the Axe-Fx's MIDI implementation in terms of external devices, but I'm not sure how old my info is. Regardless, this is really throwing a wrench into setting this system up. Generally our drummer uses a metronome in-ear, and I have the BPM set in the patch for each song so my delays are synched (and the looper in one song). As we're working out syching up me (the Axe and the Axe's looper), a click track over to the drummer, Ableton Live, and the ability for the drummer to tap-tempo when needed for certain songs - not having the Axe sync up is pretty much leaving us dead in the water.


Btw, my understand of some of the MIDI limitations were/are such:
The Axe won't send MIDI time code
The MFC-101 won't send or receive MIDI over its ports when using the RJ45/Faslink connection (not entirely relevant to this discussion, but I guess that scraps the idea I occasionally have about integrating my TimeLine on my pedal board with the MFC)
The Axe has general issues passing MIDI clock out the Thru port, as well as sometimes scrambling messages between other pieces of gear if it's sitting between them.
Click to expand...

I've running a somewhat similar setup, and have had varying success with midi sync. I used to run the tempo from a boss rc-200 in my fx loop that the band heard, but due to new gear and the lack of desire to carry around an extra small board for the boss looper we decided to switch it up.

Delays- As long as the tempo is the same between the axe and ableton/click you should be in sync. The only fx I've had trouble with were tremolo's. I was able to (somewhat) successfully tempo sync a trem block by using the sequencer set to run with and ASDR modifier. The only trick is that you actually have to play in time.

Looper- I'm still working on the looper. I've found that if your bpm is set correctly and quantize on, if you're precise with your pedal clicks, you can get a synced loop. It's a little scarier than my previous setups, but it just means I have to play better.

The other solution would be to use Ableton/Mobius for your looping (I think Simeon has a video explaining his setup). This requires a few more ins and outs from Ableton. I didn't like the idea of relying on the computer this heavily, but it works for others.

Tap Tempo- As far as the song that has the drummer tapping the tempo goes, I don't really have a good suggestion.
 
ozone67 said:
I've had my Axe FX2 for nearly three months now, so I've not yet applied myself to the midi sync side. Mainly just experimenting with amps and getting to know how to create the basics for the tones I like.

But I have to say this concerns me. I will need to have my system closely locked to Ableton and I really hope I won't have any issues. I know I'm jumping the gun as I haven't got to that stage yet. But I have noticed that the Axe seems sluggish to pick up tempo changes when I'm using Axe Edit. Maybe this is just Axe Exit.

Anyway, I would appreciate any users who can contribute to chime in, if they wouldn't mind?

BTW: I absolutely love this thing. Tried it in Tokyo in 2013 (no demo units in the UK - thank you Japanese shopping ethos!) and spent two years telling myself I shouldn't get one. I was wrong.
Click to expand...

Well, pretty much you're screwed, sorry to say. I've been working on getting the Axe to sync with Albeton Live (tried 8 and tried 9, tried via USB and via MIDI) and until Fractal fixes the issue, it's a show stopper. Ableton (also tried Cubase) will send the tempo to the Axe, the Axe's tempo will bounce around for a second or two, then (usually) settle on the right BPM. Thing is, frequently it won't be aligned with the beat; same tempo, but not on the beat. This means if you try to use the looper in the Axe and you have it quantized, it'll slice the sample start and end points out of sync with the song. It also means that the flashing tempo LED(s) are useless as a visual indicator for synchronizing yourself to the click track being sent to a drummer, or aligning yourself to the tempo of the system (Ableton, other gear, etc). I already have my patches set up for the correct BPM for each song, so having Ableton send the BPM to the axe (which is going to randomly jump around the tempo initially) is less than useless.

Additionaly: A few months back I experimented with sending the metronome from the Axe over to our drummer so I could loop the rythm guitar part at the end of one of our songs where I play a kind of outtro solo. A couple times the drummer complained that the click trick jumped tempo. This baffled me because, it's the Axe - it's perfect! It can't have any bugs! Right? But also, our drummer is a tempo machine. He uses a metronome during rehearsal and during shows, so it's not like he's not used to playing to a click. So I now realize, yep, not only can the Axe not properly sync to MIDI clock, even on its own the metronome is suspect.

And no, this is all with Axe Edit off-line.

Seeing how long this issue has existed and been ignored for firmware release after release it doesn't appear Fractal is going to devote any energy to fixing it. Sure, we'll get another firmware, and we'll get more amps...but at this point I have zero interesting in having yet another amp model(s) when there's a serious issue that needs to be addressed. We currently have, what, 218 amp models? One more amp model is going to help me perform our music better? Yeah, no. But being able to properly integrate the Axe - arguably the best guitar-oriented piece of professional audio gear, into an industry-standard time synchronization method - well THAT would be more than a little helpful.

The Axe-Fx is "The Ultimate Guitar Processor...with urivalled power and flexibilty...ideal for both stage and studio use...in the tradition that established our commitment to product evolution." I think it's time for the Axe to evolve in the MIDI department because it's currently still living in a cave, dragging its nuckles along the ground.
 
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Sub'ed. Curious as to FAS's input here, or other experts.

While I use Ableton fairly extensively with my AxeFX, I'm only really relying on the Axe's delays being in time with Ableton's tempo.

I've done numerous tests when setting up my looping workflow, and have never noticed the hiccups you are mentioning regarding it's tempo/syncing. But again, I'm only just sync'ing delays or mod on the Axe.

For looping, I find that the Axe's looper is of little use to me during performance or recording, so I use Ableton directly (since that is its forte'), my Boomerang (which is also sync'ed via Ableton's clock), or both.
 
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