MIDI sync issues?

jdosher

Inspired
Cliff, what are your thoughts/ideas/plans regarding the MIDI clock sync issue with the Axe? While certainly not everyone is hooking their Axe up to other MIDI gear, it's definitly being done and people are having issues with the lack of clock sync. Is there a way to address this in the next firmware release? Personally, I have all the amps I need for now (if I can't find my sound among 200+ models, then I'm doing something wrong), but I'm running into some show-stoppers trying to sync the Axe to Ableton Live in a useful way.

Thanks.

I've found discussions of this going back for several years on this forum and others. Some recent threads, for reference:

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-discussion/102665-midi-time-sync-problems.html

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-discussion/102669-axe-fx2-midi-clock-sync.html
 
Hi,

I'll try to help here. But first, just a helpful tip: you don't need to address a post to Cliff for him to see it. He reads the forum. Others might not read or offer help if they feel you're speaking to Cliff only, and others may imitate you and before long the whole forum will be called "Hey Cliff!"

OK, on to the question... Let me start by tweaking your terminology slightly. There is no issue with "clock". Axe-Fx MIDI clock synchronization works. Send it MIDI beat clocks and the tempo sets itself to match the upstream device. Times and rates set to track tempo change accordingly. In fact, the posts you refer to have nothing to do with clock... it might be said that they are inquiring about the fact that the Axe-Fx LFOs/sequencer/etc. don't align to bar lines. This is usually done with MIDI Song Position Pointer, which the Axe-Fx does not pay attention to. SPP is NOT clock.

But it isn't often needed as there are some smart features provided in the Axe-Fx to help align things. Some blocks give you the ability to re-align their LFOs when the effect is engaged. You can manually STOP/START the CONTROLLER LFOs or sequencer every 8 bars or so with a controller that flips its value quickly from 0 to 127. The fact that you're using live also puts a world of options at your fingertips. You can also use a MIDI clip to send external MIDI CC sweeps or steps and forego the use of internals altogether.

If you let me know in musical terms what you're trying to do, I'll try to help.

UPDATE: I read your other post. The Axe-Fx Metronome cannot be synced via cc. It is free running. I am sure it could be changed to regard Start/Stop/SPP, but this has not been a high priority with new amps, effects, etc. taking precedence. (I don't think it is any secret that the Axe-Fx metronome was sort of a simple add-on to a looper update, and the looper also needs a little attention someday.) But again... with Live, couldn't you just create a metronome track and route it to your ears (or whatever)? As for tempos fluctuating, this is inherent to the way MIDI beat clock works. A downstream device watches the constant pulse. Have you considered instead sending a stream of CC#14 pulses when you need to change or set tempo? Did you know you can also address tempo directly by sending a SysEx message to the Axe-Fx? It isn't documented, but you could snoop on Axe-Edit to find those bytes...
 
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UPDATE: I read your other post. The Axe-Fx Metronome cannot be synced via cc. It is free running. But with Live, couldn't you just create a metronome track and route it to your ears (or whatever)? As for tempos fluctuating, this is inherent to the way MIDI beat clock works. A downstream device watches the constant pulse. Have you considered instead sending a stream of CC#14 pulses when you need to change or set tempo? Did you know you can also address tempo directly by sending a SysEx message to the Axe-Fx? It isn't documented, but you could snoop on Axe-Edit to find those bytes...

Thanks.
I'm not even trying to sync LFO's or anything very fancy. I just want the down beats in the Axe/Metronome to align to the MIDI clock of the system providing timing. For me (others have other issues) the main issue is that I (and our singer/2nd guitarist) frequently use the flashing tap-tempo light on the MFC or the the Axe as a tempo indicator when starting a song. This has been very handy in the past. But now, I'm working on adding a laptop running Ableton to trigger backing tracks here and there. I'm running a click track from Ableton over to the drummer (in place of his stand-alone metronome). So far so good. But now, for these songs that I or the other guitar player start: since the Axe doesn't sync its metronome ON-BEAT, the flashing tap-tempo light on my MFC becomes useless as a visual indicator of the down beats. If we had in-ear monitors I'd run a click into them, but we don't, and won't have the finances to do so anytime soon. (It's a easier and less expensive for a stationary drummer to stick in some not-too-expensive wired earphones than it is for a standing, moving guitar player/singer.

Maybe there are other solutions, such as having the drummer give us soft stick-clicks, or wave a drum stick like a conductor's batton. I just figured I wouldn't lose the handy function of the flashing MFC LED as a visual metronome. I figured this nearly $4000 combination of gear (Axe+MFC) would handle syncing to MIDI clock like far lesser equipment has been capable of for decades.

Note: this also means one can't align the looper with the rest of the system (Live, hardware, etc). I know you're saying - use Ableton if you want a looper! And yes, that's one option, but I only use the looper once, in the last bit of a song, so adding yet more complexity and cabling and potential failure points doesn't seem like the most optimal solution. I think the Axe should be capable of aligning to MIDI clock! I really don't think that's unreasonale to expect.

As far as sending CC#14 or SysEx for setting tempo, for me, setting the bpm isn't the issue - I have one patch per song, and the bpm is already set for each song. The issue is the Axe not being aligned with the beat, and the problems this causes with the flashing tempo light, looper, and LFOs (for those trying to sync them). As you said The Axe-Fx Metronome cannot be synced via cc. <<<--- That right there, that IS the problem. One that I, and others, wish Fractal would address.
 
Thanks for chiming in M@! You have provided a much clearer picture. I'll take it as a maybe:) FYI, synced sequencers, lfo's, looper, etc to eternal midi gear is soooo choice, if you have the means..."
 
Hi Jdosher. I hear you... Hey, I will send you a link to a visual metronome which syncs to clock and SPP. It's cool and not expensive IIRC.

You can align the Looper by the way... Just do that same stop/start trick on the bar line. An Axe-Fx rig I helped design has been doing this reliably in front of tens of thousands of people most nights this summer :)
 
I've done some research. All the other devices which can correctly sync to beat have implemented System Real-Time Message Start (FAh) / Continue (FBh) signals, when they receive start signal they instantly jump to the first beat.
Will it be hard to implement this functionality ?
So when Axe will receive Start signal, sequencers and all LFOs will reset/rerun from start.
 
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One would hope that given the power and flexibilty of the Axe-Fx that it would be possible for Fractal to implement System Real-Time Message Start (FAh) / Continue (FBh) and get full MIDI time sync working. It IS the most powerful guitar effects processor in the world, we aught to be able to syncronize it with other MIDI gear.

I don't think Fractal is going to do a damn thing about this though. I'm sure I seem a little ticked off - maybe prematurely ticked off, assuming the problem won't get fixed, but in googling around to understand what was going on with the Axe I realized this problem has existed for years and Fractal has done nothing to address it. It gets me feeling a little cynical when I think about how the next new firmware will be more of the same thing (more amps I can live without), and will still have this core functionality missing.
 
Can't find the one I was thinking of but this looks good too.

Visual MIDI Metronome See The Music | eBay

Thanks for the link. That looks like a pretty cool device.

I bought a Keith McMillen 12 Step MIDI controller and it has the ability to have any of its LEDs controlled via MIDI, so for now I'm using it to display tempo and will be disabling/remapping the tap-tempo light on the MFC.

Curious, what did you mean by "You can align the Looper by the way... Just do that same stop/start trick on the bar line." Can you explain? (Also, I assume the only way to use the looper if it's not in sync with the beat is by having quantization turned off, or it'll truncate/snap the loop beginning and end points incorrectly.)
 
"You can align the Looper by the way... Just do that same stop/start trick on the bar line." Can you explain? (Also, I assume the only way to use the looper if it's not in sync with the beat is by having quantization turned off, or it'll truncate/snap the loop beginning and end points incorrectly.)

If you can send a quick 0, 127 for the looper play CC# each barline (or slightly less often) it will stay aligned with the DAW.

You'll probably find that quantize works well if the tempo is correct. There's no longer any forced alignment to the Axe pulse since all 3 parts of this wish were added:

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-wish-list/77669-improved-looper-quantize.html
 
If you can send a quick 0, 127 for the looper play CC# each barline (or slightly less often) it will stay aligned with the DAW.

You'll probably find that quantize works well if the tempo is correct. There's no longer any forced alignment to the Axe pulse since all 3 parts of this wish were added:

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-wish-list/77669-improved-looper-quantize.html

Oh thanks Bakerman. So, in a real setting, I'd need to send 0, 127 to CC122 each loop start, not each bar, correct? If it's a 4 bar phrase I'm looping, I'd need to send 0 then 127 every 4 bars, yeah?

I'm now wondering: if I send CC14 (tap tempo) from Ableton to the Axe on each down beat, will that align the tempo (and therefore tempo LED) of the Axe with Ableton? When I physically step on the MFC tap tempo IA it adjusts the tempo as well as aligning to the downbeats I'm tapping in. Will the Axe behave the same way via MIDI "taps"?

(My gear lives at our rehearsal space where I don't usually have a laptop, and there isn't wifi, so it's not as easy I'd like for me to test out seemingly simple things.)


EDIT: I just read this thread about a descrepency between how the mfc and Axe implments the 'tap'. Is this still the case? Maybe it's a non-issue 'tapping' from Ableton to the Axe since I can send 0 then 127 as you've suggested? Odd that the Fractal gear would implement this in a non-standard way. (also note: losing the tempo LED as described in the following thread isn't the right work around for my needs, since the whole point that's sent me down this rabbit hole is the desire to retain the tempo LED as my 'metronome' if possible)

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-bugs/66387-mfc-axefx-external-device-tap-tempo-issue.html

I'm starting to wonder if given the work arounds, the parital functionality, the case-by-case (song-by-song) fiddling - if there's just no point in trying to integrate the Axe with Ableton. When I add up what it's buying me vs the complexity of trying to implement it, it seems that in the big picture I'm ADDING complexity, not removing it. The whole point of connecting the laptop/Ableton to the Axe was to make life easier. It was to ADD functionality, not to get partial functionality through a series of workarounds. I'll try this 0/127 to CC14 though and see what I get. I really, really hope I'm wrong, and that I can get this working properly.
 
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Tap tempo will not adjust beat, but only tempo. I do not use DAW for beat syncing, and I don't want to take my computer to concerts, I use normal midi clock generator (molten voltage tempode or metronome with midi out).
So please, answer my question if it's really so hard to implement those start/continue messages.
Aligning the beat with those CC tricks on sequencer run/stop or external controls with DAW is not a solution!
 
Tap tempo will not adjust beat, but only tempo. I do not use DAW for beat syncing, and I don't want to take my computer to concerts, I use normal midi clock generator (molten voltage tempode or metronome with midi out).
So please, answer my question if it's really so hard to implement those start/continue messages.
Aligning the beat with those CC tricks on sequencer run/stop or external controls with DAW is not a solution!

Dang. I was hoping sending 0 and 127 to CC14 would be a straightforward solution.

As to your question of how hard would it be to implement standard MIDI clock, start/stop, etc., obviously only Fractal can answer that, but it seems our woes are falling on deaf ears so far (the issue has existed for years - we're not the first to be effected by it). Don't get me wrong - I very much appreciate the suggestions and work-arounds people such as Bakerman, @ME, and others have offered; my discontent at these MIDI issues is in no way addressed at them. It just doesn't seem that Fractal is going to address the issues being experienced by a couple of us outliers.

At the end of the day, it looks like I simply won't be able to get this to work. As I said in my previous post: the work arounds just to gain partial functionality ultimately lead to more trouble than is gained. And I come back to how I think that's pretty dissapointing given the $3250 I've given to Fractal Audio.
 
And here comes FW20, with more things I don't need, and the MIDI clock sync issue still being ignored.

I was asked not to address questions on this forum to Cliff, because he reads them all anyway...but as far as I can tell this issue is still falling on deaf ears.
 
The Axe-Fx syncs to MIDI clock. It does not sync to a downbeat at this time. That is beyond its feature definition.
 
And here comes FW20, with more things I don't need

What a lame attitude. Please sell it and move on to something that does what you need. I'm not sure why you expect the Axe and the FAS team to cater to your specific needs. Just because something is "expensive" doesn't mean it can or should do everything ever.
 
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Please sell it and move on to something that does what you need. It's unfortunate the Axe and the FAS team isn't catering to your specific needs...

I'd prefer not to adopt the "love it or leave it" philosopy if it's a problem that can be addressed. There have been a lot of features added and issues addressed over the years and maybe this will be one?
 
The Axe-Fx syncs to MIDI clock. It does not sync to a downbeat at this time. That is beyond its feature definition.
Thanks for the response Cliff.

Is synching to MIDI downbeat something that you can eventually implement, or is there some basic hardware or software issue prohibiting it? If it's simply not possible, then that's just the way it is.

I'd think (don't you love when us users arm chair program?) given that you can push the tap-tempo switch on the MFC and the metronome will align with the downbeat you're tapping that aligning the Axe's tempo would be possible at some point. Obviously, I don't have the insite into the code that you do, however.

Thanks.

-Jesse
 
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