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Midi help needed

Discussion in 'Rigs and Routing' started by 54321pj, Oct 18, 2016.

  1. 54321pj

    54321pj
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    Hello,


    I am in need of some help setting up a boss ES-8 pedal switcher with the Axe FX.

    I have an Axe FX XL, and was switching the presets and scenes via a crocodile tail looper via midi.....

    I set this up myself about 18 months ago and recall it being only slightly confusing (I know virtually nothing about midi control..... However I have upgraded my switcher to the Boss ES-8 and now I can’t remember how I set the Axe midi up, and I am now totally confused![​IMG]:confused:


    I use pedal switchers rather than the MFC because I sometimes run real pedals before the AXE.

    In a nutshell with the Croc tail looper I had 10 banks (or presets) and 7 programs per bank, (or scenes) I had successfully programmed the Croc to be able to go up and down the presets and change scenes - but I only had 7 scenes before I had to change to the next preset...

    To do this, I vaguely remember having to go into the Axe front panel menu and manually change values of a particular parameter...... It could have been "Scene Value" or something like this??? I can’t remember, and can not figure out what I did to achieve this the first time 18 months ago, and it's driving me potty!!![​IMG]:eek:


    Because the Boss switcher now has the ability to switch all 8 scenes I now need to change the AXE midi values (or whatever it is I need to change)

    For e.g currently:-

    Preset 4 scene 1 would be 28
    Preset 4 scene 2 would be 29
    Preset 4 scene 3 would be 30
    And so on.......
    Preset 4 scene 7 would be 34
    Preset 5 scene 1 would be 35

    And its this value I need to change, using the above example, because I now need the "scene value" (or whatever its called) of 35 (above) to be calling up preset 4 scene 8 on the axe...

    I know the AXE can do this, because I have set this up once before..... But cant remember how I did it!! LOL

    Guys....a bit long winded, but I hope someone out there understands me and can put me out of my misery????[​IMG]o_O:)
     
  2. Desmo808

    Desmo808
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    On the front panel, I/O button, MIDI tab.

    Preset 4 scene 8 would be represented as 4:8. Do this for each patch number that you want to map to a specific preset & scene.

    Ugh, I'm doing this from memory, so my description might not be exactly as it appears on the panel. But once you see the actual map layout, it's pretty self-explanatory.
     
  3. 54321pj

    54321pj
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    Sorry - I dont see anything which looks like 4:8 in the menu, doesn't bring back any memories of how I did it last time....:(
    I seem to remember numbers which corresponded to which preset and which scene. something like the tables attached.


    Axe FX scene value table.jpg Axe PJ scene value croc tail looper.jpg
     
  4. Desmo808

    Desmo808
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    Sorry, my brain cells are disappearing hahah. I'm not at home, so I can't look at the panel. If nobody answers this by the time I get home, I'll fire up the Axe and post a definitive answer.
     
  5. Desmo808

    Desmo808
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    Ugh ignore what I said about 4:8 being preset 4, scene 8. That was the notation I had to myself on my own spreadsheet :oops:o_O

    This is the screen you want on the front panel. I/O > MIDI tab:
    [​IMG]

    In this example, patch 35 is calling up preset 392, scene 1.

    Just change MAP FROM PRESET, MAP TO PRESET, and MAP TO SCENE to match your own custom map.
     
  6. 54321pj

    54321pj
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    Thanks for trying to help its appreciated.
    Hmmm, I going crazy now trying to figure this out.. I totally get what your saying above.. If I remember this is only the first step.
    I have a similar set up. All the presets I use as my own are stored in the Axe from 500 on-wards, My screen always looks like this with these same values, no matter what preset Im currently on when I go into the I/O menu.

    Axe front screen.jpg

    This is only part of the process, after this there is then another number or value to change if I remember correctly??? (but then I am going mad now so even I'm questioning myself!!)
    With the above set up, the Boss is now functioning just like the crocodile tail looper:-
    I can select a preset (from 500 onwards) then I can change scenes no problem until I want scene 8.... I have some-how programmed the Axe to jump straight to the next preset scene 1......(Because the Croc tail looper never had the option of the 8th scene....) And now the Boss is doing the same!

    Maybe a short video would help? I really do appreciate you trying to help me.
     
  7. maxdown

    maxdown
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    You need to physically dial to each Map From Preset value to see what's happening to the Map To Preset and Map To Scene values - it doesn't matter what preset is active on the Axe-FX at time of editing ....... the I/O menu page does not update it's display per preset ... IE it is an independent global menu

    In I/O Midi menu page ..... If you dial to Map From Preset = '7' what do the Map To Preset and Map To Scene values change to? I'm guessing for 8 scene setup they should be set at Map To Preset = 500 and Map To Scene = 8 but might actually read at the moment 501/1 to suit the previous floor controller.

    Presumably the Boss Bank 1 switch 1 sends Program change value of '0' , Bank 1 Switch 2 = '1', Bank 1 Switch 3 = '2' etc. then Bank 1 Switch 8 should in theory send a PC value of '7' - which means you would check that in I/O MIDI page the Map From Preset for value '7' has Map To Preset value '500' and Map To Scene = '8'

    Boss Bank 2 Sw 8 then probably sends PC value of '15' - so you check that Preset 15 is mapped to Preset 501 (or whatever preset you want Bank 2 to correspond to) and Scene value = 8
     
  8. 54321pj

    54321pj
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    Yes you are on the same page as me I'm sure - thank you for helping, this is potentially getting somewhere!! TF!
     
  9. 54321pj

    54321pj
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    Wow! this is officially driving me insane!
    I'm half way there, I can get the first presets to go through all 8 scenes, then when I try to go to preset 2 scene 1, it stays on preset 1 scene 8! and then goes up the scenes from there!. I have a new table (attached) but I guess I still can not get me head around what it is I'm actually doing program wise here, the function and flow has just not clicked yet with me yet:mad::mad:

    At what point are you supposed to change the values in the menu? Currently Im going through the preset (preset 1 scene 1, then preset 1 scene 2, and so on) and changing the values as I go.....is this correct? Its now switching presets and scenes all over the place, and I just cant get a grip on it.
    Axe FX Boss & Croc midi table.jpg


    Help - HELP, HELP :)
     
  10. maxdown

    maxdown
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    The I/O MIDI Mapping menu is global and is independent of whatever preset you currently have loaded - so you basically can edit the Mapping all in one go or re-visit it to edit some more whenever you want.

    Your images are a bit too small to be read so I'm not sure what you're doing there.

    I'm assuming this is indeed just straight MIDI Mapping dealing with default PC changes coming in from the Boss unit and everything is edited on the Axe-FX side?? There's no sort of MIDI config change being done on the Boss unit as well?

    How about doing it this way ........ (I'm not sure if 'Custom' mappings are stored on the Axe-FX if you switch away from that mode so doing this might mean you have to start the Custom Mapping from scratch - so if you've a clatter of personal 8 Scene presets in your 500 and up slots ...be warned)

    This is just primarily to check what PC/Preset values are being sent by the Boss for each Bank and Switch

    The interesting ones will be what happens when you hit Banks other than the first one in the Boss

    In the I/O > MIDI menu page on the Axe-FX ..... Turn off the 'Custom' value in the Mapping Mode so it's Normal (or whatever the other value is .... I'm not beside my AxeFX at the moment)

    Select Bank 1 and Switch 1 on the Boss - make a note of the Preset number called on the Axe-FX .... then do this for switch 2, switch 3 etc and go through all the Banks/Switches sequentially

    So at the end of that you should have a list like the first 2 columns in image below :


    [​IMG]

    Once you've all the default PC values as sent by the Boss and filled up Columns 1 and 2 you can then go back and change the Mapping Mode to Custom again in the I/O > MIDI menu page

    You then can stay in the I/O menu and Map From the column 1 values to whatever preset and scene you require.

    In columns 3 and 4 above I have assumed that you would have your personal presets sequentially running in numerical order from 500 up and have 8 scenes per preset ... but there's nothing to stop you altering that if want it differently .... EG a PC value of 8 from the Boss could be mapped to preset 510 and Scene 4. (I wouldn't recommend that though .... it could get very confusing!)

    It's a manual edit job in the I/O menu ..... you just have to start with Map From Preset and select 0 then nav down to Map To and select a value then nav down to Map To Scene and select a value ....... then back up to Map From Preset - select the next value and do the relevant changes in the Map To and Map To Scene .... and repeat until you've all the possible incoming PC values from the Boss covered.
     
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  11. 54321pj

    54321pj
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    Hi guy's (both Maxdown & Desmo808)
    Hallelujah!!!
    With your help and around 20 hours I've cracked it... Once I kept reading over what you guys were saying, small amounts of memories kept flashing back to the last time I did it...Basically I had it wrapped around my neck when it came to the Map From & To Preset/Scene and because every time I opened the midi menu (no matter what preset I was on) the value were always 0, 500, 1 It totally sent me off on a tangent....... You kind of have to put the numbers in each time almost blind as to where it was pointing to in the first place on that preset/scene.

    On a side note, Yes, the Boss ES-8 does need to be configured for midi first, as it comes default with no midi signals being transmitted on any Channel, Preset / Scene. (or Bank / Program as they call it) But it's quite easy to do....

    However - Now, I'm stuck again :D
    The boss only has 128 commands on each channel (think it has 8 channels) so far everything has been on channel one both Boss and Axe.
    The Axe has the same 128 per channel.
    That means I have managed to program 16 presets with 8 scenes in each. I can go from preset 1 scene 1 to preset 16 scene 8 (and anywhere in between) with the press of just two buttons on the Boss...

    Now how do I continue the work and get both speaking on a different channel from Preset 17 Scene 1 onwards and get another 128 command through automatically ????:p:rolleyes:
     
  12. Bakerman

    Bakerman
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    Axe custom map mode is limited to 128 total mappings. Extra MIDI channels don't help here.

    It looks like the ES-8 can send bank select and 2 CC messages per preset. This would be the way to access more than 128 different scenes, with Axe map mode set to "none". The bank select & PC# will determine the preset. A CC can be programmed to load any scene. (The CC can be omitted when you want scene 1, since that's the default.)
     
  13. 54321pj

    54321pj
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    Damn - something told me it would be plain sailing...
    I have only just finished patting myself on the back for getting through the episode above:D
    Not sure I can tackle another episode trying to figure out who, where, when, why, what, which, how...:oops:
     
  14. Paul Abell

    Paul Abell
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    I hope I am not digging up an old issue, but I am new here and to AxeFx; I have been waiting on the III, and I placed my order this week; Hoping it arrives mid-week, coming up!

    I, too, have an ES-8 that I am hoping to use with the AxeFx III; I have a lot to learn, but from what I remember reading, the AxeFX III introduces Channels to scenes? If I am wrong, I am sure you guys know...

    Has anyone tried to use the ES-8 with an AxeFX III? I am sure there are limitations, but I figured I would try this first... I need the option of adding pedals in front of my amp(s), so the ES-8 is what I have used.

    I am planning on using the AF III in the effects loop of my amps as well as direct into my computer. I do not plan on using it as a stand alone amp, but who knows. that could change!

    Any help would be greatly appreciated!
     
  15. unix-guy

    unix-guy
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    The III adds Channels... Not to Scenes, just as a general feature. The Channels replace X/Y states that are on the II.

    Both Channels and Scenes are controlled by sending midi CC messages with specified data values.

    I just checked the ES-8 manual and confirmed it supports doing that (some controllers don't). I found this info on pages 10 and 19... Although it assumes a lot about your knowledge of midi :)

    This could probably also help the OP as he was using Preset Mapping on the Axe Fx II, which is a pain in the ass and has limited capability.
     
  16. Paul Abell

    Paul Abell
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    Unix-Guy: Thanks for the info and clarification... I appreciate the help! I have the ES-8 controlling a Mesa JP-2C, and I will be using it to control a PRS Archon with the Voodoo Lab Control Switcher, as well!

    I am by no means a Mid guru, but if pointed in the right direction, I can usually work things out...

    I am familiar with PC and CC messages, and to control the JP-2C, I did it completely with PC messages. I am aware how to make the appropriate adjustments within the ES-8. Programming the JP-2C, was a simple but lengthy process that I had to do manually between the pedal and the amp; I am hoping I can use the ES-8 Editor app to program the AF III!

    On page 9, the first table explains the Midi Patches, you have 8 on the ES-8; all of this info is easily edited/stored in the ES-8 Editor! Same for the first diagram on page 19, this refers back to page 10 where you choose a CH (midi device), CC# and the corresponding value! As best I can remember, without going into the ES-8 utility, you can send two Midi CC#'s per midi patch!

    I need to refer back to the previous post to see if there is anything I may have missed... I am sure it is not going to be easy!

    At this moment, I do not fully understand scenes and channels, but I have downloaded the AF III manual so that I can get a head start on how to operate it once it arrives. Obviously, I do not have single sound yet, so there will be a big learning curve in dialing in sounds, as well as controlling the AF.

    I have held off on getting one till the III came out... I am sure this will take a lot to get it programmed and hopefully working correctly, but once it is done, I think it should be great!

    I am open to any and all info!

    Thanks,


    Paul
     
  17. Paul Abell

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    Ok... Probably not a midi issue, but I do think I understand better:

    Each AF III Preset = (8) Scenes, which house Blocks; (most) block can have up to 4 Channels

    From the Manual: "Scenes can use the Scene MIDI block (p. 95) to send up to 8 MIDI PC or CC messages each time a new scene is selected."

    I assume this is very similar to the 8 Midi Patches within the ES-8.

    Figuring out how to control all this with an ES-8 that was not designed to do this might prove to be tricky!
     
  18. unix-guy

    unix-guy
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    Prepare to be blown away!

    I predict your amp will be gathering dust within 6 months. :)

    The concept of Scenes is simple (it's also similar in a way to using your GCX):

    Imagine you have a pedal board full of pedals and amp or two - with some pedals on and some off. That is a preset.

    With that "rig" you can have various combinations of those pedals and amps being either engaged or bypassed. Those are Scenes.

    Now imagine that in the "location" of one pedal (or one amp) in that rig, you could have 2 or 4 alternate pedals of the same type, and you could pick one of those dynamically without changing the rig (preset) at all. That is Channels.
     
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  19. Paul Abell

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    Yes... I understand that completely.... That may very well happen, but my stepson has the AF II, and while it sound great, his amp sounds better. If I could post a link to his sound, I would, but bing a new user, I cant post an external link just yet!

    Right now, I have an array of Strymon pedals: TimeLine, Big Sky and Mobius, and while I think they make excellent effects, the whole setup is too much; everything all in one place seemed much better suited for what I wanted. I just kept holding off... I have tried other software app that claim to be the answer, and I was not overly impressed; my amps smoke those... I probably will never sell all my amps, but I would not mind selling a Splawn QR and a Divided by 13 FTR 37... I think that makes sense!

    I hope I am blown away way beyond anything I anticipate and that I end up keeping the Archon and nothing else... That was a gift from the Wife, so I will keep that! Plus, it is a great amp for the money!
     

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