Metal tones that you use live

Dommak89

Member
Hi folks,

I'm interested what you guys' patches look like. It's not that I cant get a good tone out of my Standard, but somehow something is always lacking or disturbing. So I was wondering what you guy use (or used) live or while practicing with your band. I'm particularly interested in those of you who play their Axe Fx via a power amp and a real cab, rather than the simulation.

For those of you interested, I seem to lack punch in the tone. The tone itself is ok. Nothing spectacular, but it's ok. I tried many, many things (including Cliff's idead on how to get a tight metal tone), but I always have to compromise, because I either get tremendous feedback, don't have enough clarity or, (like it is now) don't have enough punch. It's like my Axe Fx and my Cab don't work too well together.

My signal chain is
Guitar -> Axe Fx Std. -> Engl 920 2x50 -> Marshall 1960 slanted ||
-------------------------> Cab Simulation -> PA
 
Maybe the graphic was misleading or I understood you wrong, but the cab sim is not infront of the actual guitar cab. I use 2 Outputs. Output 1 is Guitar -> Axe Fx Std. -> Engl 920 2x50 -> Marshall 1960 slanted and Output 2 is Axe Fx Std. -> Cab Simulation -> PA. So the cab sim shouldn't have any influence on the sound that comes through the power amp and through the actual guitar cab (Marshall)
 
What amp models are you using, what else is going on in the Axe-FX's chain, and what kind of sound are you going for? Assuming the 1960A is stock, those 75s are... well, like most speakers really, good for some things, not so good for others.

If you're getting a load of feedback though, assuming there's nothing wrong with your guitar, I'd probably start by looking at how much gain you're running.
 
Turn off cab sim, leave on power amp sim. If using PA system mic the cab the traditional way. IMO

I see a lot of people do that, but when I turn power amp sims on it sounds like theres a blanket over my cab, it takes away all the presence and midrange response and everything turns to mud. Ive tried dialing in tones both way, and for me, with my setup, poweramp sims off always sounds better for me.. Am I missing something?

Axe FX MKII - Europower 2500 power amp - Marshall MF400 cab.
 
We are talking tube power amps,i believe you are correct to leave it off with your Europower. Always trust your ears anyway.
I see a lot of people do that, but when I turn power amp sims on it sounds like theres a blanket over my cab, it takes away all the presence and midrange response and everything turns to mud. Ive tried dialing in tones both way, and for me, with my setup, poweramp sims off always sounds better for me.. Am I missing something?

Axe FX MKII - Europower 2500 power amp - Marshall MF400 cab.
 
What amp models are you using, what else is going on in the Axe-FX's chain, and what kind of sound are you going for?
Right Now I'm using the FAS Modern. I might have been too concentrated on the actual settings than on the amp models, so that's a thing I want to check out. Anny recommendations? I'm going towards a more modern Death Metal Sound. Where you can hear chords clearly, get a lot of punch when I chug and and don't get too much feedback.
Assuming the 1960A is stock, those 75s are... well, like most speakers really, good for some things, not so good for others.
Well, I kinda guessed that. But still. Before I go out there and buy new gear I want to make the best of what I have. And then, when there's nothing else to change and tweak (ok that ones gonna be tricky with the Axe-Fx), then I'll go buy whatever makes the sound better. So for now I'll stick with the stock 1960A

If you're getting a load of feedback though, assuming there's nothing wrong with your guitar, I'd probably start by looking at how much gain you're running.
That's a thing I covered in multiple forums and in the end nothing really helped. My gain is really not turned up that much. Just enough to cross the bridge between crunchy and high gain Sound.

As to the other stuff going on in the Axe Fx: For my Rythm patch I actually don't have anything fancy in there. I have an Overdrive Pedal. The Nullfilter (as suggested by Cliff) the Amp and then a Cab Sim trying to emulate the 1960A and respectively a FX Loop for the Output going to my ENGL.

I see a lot of people do that, but when I turn power amp sims on it sounds like theres a blanket over my cab, it takes away all the presence and midrange response and everything turns to mud. Ive tried dialing in tones both way, and for me, with my setup, poweramp sims off always sounds better for me.. Am I missing something?

Axe FX MKII - Europower 2500 power amp - Marshall MF400 cab.

We are talking tube power amps,i believe you are correct to leave it off with your Europower. Always trust your ears anyway.
I'll also try that, but won't it change the coloring of the first output as well? Meaning the one that goes through the cab sim and the PA. Or can I turn the power amp sim off for one Output and leave it on for another?
 
I had similar issues and there are a ton of things that can be done e to fix them. I found for myself that changing the speakers in my 4x12 solved most of my in the room sound issues. I had a mix of V30 and T75s and when I swapped out the 75s for Celestian K100s and it made everything tight clear and really punchy in the low end. Give it a shot if you have the cash.
 
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I see a lot of people do that, but when I turn power amp sims on it sounds like theres a blanket over my cab, it takes away all the presence and midrange response and everything turns to mud. Ive tried dialing in tones both way, and for me, with my setup, poweramp sims off always sounds better for me.. Am I missing something?

Axe FX MKII - Europower 2500 power amp - Marshall MF400 cab.

When you run poweramp sims on, how are you running the master? If you have it cranked (or up fairly high), you'll likely end up with a fuller midrange and more dulled highs.

Otherwise... maybe it's just that you've dialed everything in for poweramp sim off, and when you switch it on even with the master at lower settings it's just not what you wanna hear. Sure, maybe you could spend time re-tweaking, but if you're already getting the sound you want, why bother? If there's some tubey powerampy goodness you feel you're missing, sure, go for it. If you've got the sound you want... I'd say just stick with it.
 
Right Now I'm using the FAS Modern. I might have been too concentrated on the actual settings than on the amp models, so that's a thing I want to check out. Anny recommendations? I'm going towards a more modern Death Metal Sound. Where you can hear chords clearly, get a lot of punch when I chug and and don't get too much feedback.
Well, the FAS Modern is a nice model, and probably pretty well suited to what you're aiming for. It's kind of a "best bits of" modern heavy amps. There are certainly others that you could try, but the FAS Modern is by no means a misguided choice. I'm more a Mark series guy normally, but if I wanted a "modern metal" sound... the FAS Modern is probably the first thing I'd turn to.

Well, I kinda guessed that. But still. Before I go out there and buy new gear I want to make the best of what I have. And then, when there's nothing else to change and tweak (ok that ones gonna be tricky with the Axe-Fx), then I'll go buy whatever makes the sound better. So for now I'll stick with the stock 1960A
Well, the unfortunate fact is, the speakers (and the cab they're in) do make a huge difference to the sound. Really, I'd say it's one of the biggest factors in the overall sound. Back when I ran a stock 1960A (pre-Axe days), lack of clarity was one of the problems I had. The midrange was lacking, the low end was fairly loose, and the highs fizzy. Pump a cranked Marshall through that and the two'll probably work together nicely. But modern metal tones, maybe not as nice a combination. I can understand the desire to want to get everything you can out of the current setup, but at the end of the day the speakers are the last part of the chain (not counting mic'ing it up and running it through a PA) and they have a big effect. And not even just the speakers, the cab too. I can take the V30 out of my 1x12 and whack it into my 2x12 and there's a significant sound difference. One that no amount of EQing is really going to dial out. On one hand it's more money to spend... on the other hand... you've got the guitar you want (I assume), running into an Axe-FX, into a nice poweramp and then into... a 1960A, which you possibly picked up cheap coz they're just everywhere. It'd be like having all the nicest ingredients, but all you have to finish off your cooking is soy sauce. Sure that'll work great for some things, but for other things... no amount of adding other herbs and spices is going to make up for it. The 1960A's not a bad cab... but as nice as it might be, you probably wouldn't tow a caravan with a Ferrari.

That's a thing I covered in multiple forums and in the end nothing really helped. My gain is really not turned up that much. Just enough to cross the bridge between crunchy and high gain Sound.
If you're really not using that much gain, I'd maybe start wondering about your pickups or something. Back when I played loud with the band, I used more gain than I personally liked (still not a lot by some metal standards I guess, but it was a metal band), and never had a problem with feedback. In practice or live, I had to deliberately coax out feedback if I wanted it.

As to the other stuff going on in the Axe Fx: For my Rythm patch I actually don't have anything fancy in there. I have an Overdrive Pedal. The Nullfilter (as suggested by Cliff) the Amp and then a Cab Sim trying to emulate the 1960A and respectively a FX Loop for the Output going to my ENGL.
That sounds nearly as simple as the chains I tend to use. I guess what I'd suggest is to tweak by ear, and no by eye or by what you think "should" go in there. Maybe (just as an example) you're whacking the overdrive in there largely coz when you look at the rigs of whatever guitarists in whatever bands, they're all running Tubescreamers or similar things in front of their amps, and they all talk about that being an important part of the sound. On the other hand, those guys (running "real" amps) don't have the kind of controls available to tweak the amp like an Axe user does. Nor do they have the fictional idealised FAS Modern to play with. Nor are they you, playing in the band you're in. Cliff's Nulfilter tip makes sense if you want a crazy tight attack, but personally for me I think a good death metal guitar tone has a depth and a bit of sag in the attack that a tweak like that is basically working directly against. If you were aiming for a djenty tone or something then yeah, that's a great idea. But to me a death metal tone should have a bit of "flub" in the attack, and from there you can control it to a degree with your right hand.

There's also the whole thing of dialing it in to fit the band, and of course whether the other guys in the band also need to look at their own sounds. I mean, you could go nuts trying to tweak your sound to perfection, and meanwhile the bassist in your death metal band is inappropriately trying to sound like Lars Norberg in Spiral Architect, and your drummer is playing a 1/2-size child's kit. :lol
 
Thanks for thad detailed answer. Also loved your analogies (or metaphors?).

I realize there's a lot to consider; a lot of influencing factors on the sound that don't even have anything to do with the Axe.
Still, I will fiddle with the settings once more and see if I can get anything out of it with all the new input I got. I actually enjoy tweaking the Axe Fx since I have learned so much more about gear, settings and sound, ever since I started messing with it.

If you're really not using that much gain, I'd maybe start wondering about your pickups or something. Back when I played loud with the band, I used more gain than I personally liked (still not a lot by some metal standards I guess, but it was a metal band), and never had a problem with feedback. In practice or live, I had to deliberately coax out feedback if I wanted it.
Well I don't think it's that. I use several guitars and it happens with all of them. Sometimes I wonder if we are playing too loud. Then again, if I cant hear myself over the drums it's not too loud, is it? Maybe it's the cable? I just ordered a new one, so we'll see about that. Also it might be a mix of all of my problems, including cable, playing and Axe settings.

That sounds nearly as simple as the chains I tend to use. I guess what I'd suggest is to tweak by ear, and no by eye or by what you think "should" go in there [...] But to me a death metal tone should have a bit of "flub" in the attack, and from there you can control it to a degree with your right hand.
Totally will do that before next band practice. And yeah I agree with the sound. Yet it shouldn't be too mushy, meaning still hearing the attack and the notes in contrast to early 90 death metal recordings.
There's also the whole thing of dialing it in to fit the band, and of course whether the other guys in the band also need to look at their own sounds. I mean, you could go nuts trying to tweak your sound to perfection, and meanwhile the bassist in your death metal band is inappropriately trying to sound like Lars Norberg in Spiral Architect, and your drummer is playing a 1/2-size child's kit. :lol
Ha :D No they're not. But I'm picturing something like this now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD-1fBWHioA
 
Well I don't think it's that. I use several guitars and it happens with all of them. Sometimes I wonder if we are playing too loud. Then again, if I cant hear myself over the drums it's not too loud, is it? Maybe it's the cable? I just ordered a new one, so we'll see about that. Also it might be a mix of all of my problems, including cable, playing and Axe settings.
Yeah, it could be something like a cable, or maybe you're playing too loud relative to where you're standing, or maybe something else. Maybe your OD -> Amp chain might sound simple enough that nothing could go wrong, but you're somehow setting it in such an extreme fashion. But with the band, whether I was running FRFR, just a guitar cab, or both... in none of those situations did I have a problem with feedback. Any time there was feedback on stage, "Is that you or me?" and I'd be thinking, "After all this time, why do you still bother to ask? It's you. It's always you." :lol

Totally will do that before next band practice. And yeah I agree with the sound. Yet it shouldn't be too mushy, meaning still hearing the attack and the notes in contrast to early 90 death metal recordings.

Ha :D No they're not. But I'm picturing something like this now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD-1fBWHioA
Yeah definitely, for more modern death metal I wouldn't be aiming to recreate the sound of a cranked Boss HM-2 or anything. But all this business more recently of running an OD out front (plus null filter trick for Axe users), and compression, and brutal gating and whatever else... that's all good for some sounds, but I think even modern death metal needs a more raw amp sound than that kind of thing. And I think I'd be inclined to try keep things as simple as possible without spending a lifetime tweaking away at it. I mean, there are a lot of recordings that I think sound amazing, guitars included... and yet if I dialed that tone in myself, I'd probably think it sounded horrible or at least needed tweaking. And yet if I just made myself get over my lonely (coz let's face it, no one else really cares) tone quest and played through that sound...it'd probably be perfectly fine.

On the other hand of course, you could aim for perfection in dialing in your deliberately-a-bit-raw and a-bit-tight-but-not-overly-so sound. You could run two amp blocks in parallel and blend them to get what you want. Maybe a higher gain amp with a tighter lower gain one running alongside it for a blend of tightness/clarity and high gain brutality. Maybe you could find a way to be crafty with internal modifiers and blend the amps according to how hard you're picking. Or even by pitch, so that when you're down at the lowest notes it's blended more one way and as you move higher it goes the other way. Or do similar things with drives, filters, etc.

Or whatever. Fortunately/unfortunately are countless possibilities in the Axe-FX. :| Sometimes it seems things'd be easier and more fun to be more like those guys in the video. :lol
 
So here's a quick update:
I changed my amp model to the "Recto Orange" and tweaked the settings a bit. Then I noticed that my Overdrive Pedal's level wasn't turned all the way up, so I did. I also increased the Master on the Amp, but decreased the Volume via knobs. That made it possible to turn the gain down to 1 (8 - 9 o'clock) and also decrease presence and highs. I was able to include the Nullfilter and could disabandon the compressor. So now it seems my feedback problem is gone. The sound quality has increased. Yet it still lacks punch. Even after messing with the LF resonance I still don't get that "yo I just got punched in the gut"-feeling when palm-muting. So eventually I will buy new speakers for my Marshall Cab (I guess I go with V30s). As to the sound via PA: I can't comment on that yet, since our PA isn't working properly.
 
As far as I'm concerned this is the most difficult sound to get out of the Axe Fx. I run mine through a tube poweramp into a 2x12 evh cabinet at home or a 4x12 cabinet when we jam. I use the filter like you said and also changed a setting in my drive block (FET boost) that helped to tighten up the sound (can't remember which one but I could hear the difference) think it might have been the "clip type" I used the UBER amp turning the bass low without to much gain. I also put a PEQ right after the amp block to add bass and fatten up the tone some. I think I may have messed with the damping control and I do use the poweramp sim but set the sag control to just 1 notch from off and really watch the master volume control or it will get muddy quick.
 
As far as I'm concerned this is the most difficult sound to get out of the Axe Fx. I run mine through a tube poweramp into a 2x12 evh cabinet at home or a 4x12 cabinet when we jam. I use the filter like you said and also changed a setting in my drive block (FET boost) that helped to tighten up the sound (can't remember which one but I could hear the difference) think it might have been the "clip type" I used the UBER amp turning the bass low without to much gain. I also put a PEQ right after the amp block to add bass and fatten up the tone some. I think I may have messed with the damping control and I do use the poweramp sim but set the sag control to just 1 notch from off and really watch the master volume control or it will get muddy quick.

Thanks for your input and exact settings. Really appreciate that.


For anybody that has the same problem: On a german site, I asked the same question, and besides a lot of similarities to this thread I also got the suggestion to mess with the xfr match and dyn presence settings a bit. I'm trying that out tomorrow. I'll let ya'll know how it went.
 
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