Mesa Boogie Mark IV / IIC+ tones

I'm honestly not digging the Mesa MK series with the Axe Fx 2. I used to have a 83 Mk 2C and a Mk 2 C+. The Axe Fx 2 sounds muddy when I use any of the of the Mark series emulations. They're not loud at alll either. I use the HBE or Soldano.instead.
 
eljodon said:
I'm honestly not digging the Mesa MK series with the Axe Fx 2. I used to have a 83 Mk 2C and a Mk 2 C+. The Axe Fx 2 sounds muddy when I use any of the of the Mark series emulations. They're not loud at alll either. I use the HBE or Soldano.instead.
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I'm pretty sure it's not the pre-amp of the Axe which causes the error/muddyness.
I've owned a Triaxis and the Axe Marks sims sounds better. I play through CAB sim or through a real Mesa power amp and real Mesa cab. Running through a power amp and cab sounds like what you are used to from a guitar amplifier. Running through cab and mic sim is the 'recorded' version of your sound. If that is muddy, try better IR's. Or even better, create your own IR's with the Axe. That is pretty simple. I've done it with my power amp and a cabinet. I've A/Bed the real VS IR, and the IR is damn close!
 
karls MarkV preset out thru my matrix 2X12 with the PEQ set to what the wiki states in the Simeon reference sounds really, really good thru my rig.
I also used that PEQ with the Triaxis Yellow amp sim and it sounds pretty kick ass (this is all thru the Matrix -> guitar cab)
 
kmanick said:
karls MarkV preset out thru my matrix 2X12 with the PEQ set to what the wiki states in the Simeon reference sounds really, really good thru my rig.
I also used that PEQ with the Triaxis Yellow amp sim and it sounds pretty kick ass (this is all thru the Matrix -> guitar cab)
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+1
 
I've listened to some more clips of the real ones, only this time I've been looking for clips close miced with SM57s or similar. I find these clips sound a lot more like the tone I get, which makes sense since that's the same signal chain I'm simulating. So I think the Axe is much closer the real ones than I've thought. But I don't like the tone of these clips at all! I think the close miced recordings sound so dull and steril and lacks energy compared to the clips where just some random camera mice is used. Is this just me?? I guess that the difference is that the camera mics captures the room acoustics as well? Still, the isolated petrucci tracks sounds really awesome with a lot of energy and punch, and they are recorded very similarly? There must be something I'm missing. I know he records in a professional studio and everything is top notch, but it can't be just that because to me the difference is like night and day.
 
CyrielLenting said:
I'm pretty sure it's not the pre-amp of the Axe which causes the error/muddyness.
I've owned a Triaxis and the Axe Marks sims sounds better. I play through CAB sim or through a real Mesa power amp and real Mesa cab. Running through a power amp and cab sounds like what you are used to from a guitar amplifier. Running through cab and mic sim is the 'recorded' version of your sound. If that is muddy, try better IR's. Or even better, create your own IR's with the Axe. That is pretty simple. I've done it with my power amp and a cabinet. I've A/Bed the real VS IR, and the IR is damn close!
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Thanks for the reply and to everyone else's. I don't use IRs that much. I'm currently using a Mesa Boogie 2 90 with either a 2 x 12 custom can with Scumback BM 75 for small gigs, 2 or 4 Marshall cabs, each with Scumback M75,H75 or Celestion V30's. 95% of the amps I use, (all the of the Marshall's, HBE/BE. many of the hi gain amps , Vox Fender's) sound amazing. But the Boogie is not really working out for me.
Many of the other amps I can dial in a great sound in 5 min.
I'm buying a Matrix GT1600FX next week and retire my 2 90 for studio use. So that's pretty much my set up.
I have no issues with the Recto's at all!
I even use a Hi Watt for a couple of Styx Grand Illusion song's that we do and I nailed Tommy Shaw's tone. But the Mk series are not cooperating me!! I would love to be able to dial it in since my band also plays some Night Ranger tunes to get Brad Gillis guitar tone. But when a switch between the Boogie Mk2 and the Marshall to do a Jeff Watson lead, the Marshal eats it up! The Marshall sims are so much louder than the Boogie, that I have to use a filter block to boost it to keep the master low!
I'm also duplicating the eq curve that most people use to get a scooped sound.
Maybe my Mk series sims are blown in my Axe Fx 2! Lol!
 
eljodon said:
Thanks for the reply and to everyone else's. I don't use IRs that much. I'm currently using a Mesa Boogie 2 90 with either a 2 x 12 custom can with Scumback BM 75 for small gigs, 2 or 4 Marshall cabs, each with Scumback M75,H75 or Celestion V30's. 95% of the amps I use, (all the of the Marshall's, HBE/BE. many of the hi gain amps , Vox Fender's) sound amazing. But the Boogie is not really working out for me.
Many of the other amps I can dial in a great sound in 5 min.
I'm buying a Matrix GT1600FX next week and retire my 2 90 for studio use. So that's pretty much my set up.
I have no issues with the Recto's at all!
I even use a Hi Watt for a couple of Styx Grand Illusion song's that we do and I nailed Tommy Shaw's tone. But the Mk series are not cooperating me!! I would love to be able to dial it in since my band also plays some Night Ranger tunes to get Brad Gillis guitar tone. But when a switch between the Boogie Mk2 and the Marshall to do a Jeff Watson lead, the Marshal eats it up! The Marshall sims are so much louder than the Boogie, that I have to use a filter block to boost it to keep the master low!
I'm also duplicating the eq curve that most people use to get a scooped sound.
Maybe my Mk series sims are blown in my Axe Fx 2! Lol!
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I agree!! Is not the same! I own a Splawn Nitro and a Marsha HBE/BE and I can get a very similar sound with the Axe Fx 2! I even use the Friedman BE on some of my Marshall tones and it kicks ass!
 
eljodon said:
But when a switch between the Boogie Mk2 and the Marshall to do a Jeff Watson lead, the Marshal eats it up! The Marshall sims are so much louder than the Boogie,
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this is a weird statement - the amps have a level parameter in them, so why are you using a filter block to raise the level? if the marshall has it's master volume higher than the boogie, then it will be louder. more master volume = more volume! use the level parameter to balance the two :)
 
simeon said:
this is a weird statement - the amps have a level parameter in them, so why are you using a filter block to raise the level? if the marshall has it's master volume higher than the boogie, then it will be louder. more master volume = more volume! use the level parameter to balance the two :)
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The difference in volume is quite a lot. Even when I switch between the Boogie and a the Friedman HBE with the master volume at almost the same setting.
I use the filter block to increase the volume for leads when using Scenes.
Some amp aims are louder than others. Like the Vox compared to a Marshall and the Power ball
 
I'm actually having the opposite issue recently. I run almost the same rig 2 90 but I use a 4/12 recto cab. I keep finding that all my mesa amps are really, really bright - almost piercingly so. I have to keep the presence knob completely off on my 2 90 and everything is dialed very dark on the axe. I also roll off the top end of the global eq, but still the end result is bright sounding. How do you run your 2 90?
 
I no longer have my Mark IV to side by side compare them, but for me it sounds pretty much the way I expected.

Things I had to do with my real Mark IVb

1. Bass could not be higher then 3 (on the 1 to 10 scale, not clock hands). Anything higher was pure flub
2. Mid also needed to stay around 3-4 or else it got muddy
3. Treble was like a gain knob. Adjust to taste along with the gain.

Now, once you did the 3 above, you were left with a fairly thing sounding amp.

So now to get back all that bass you I dialed out, I did all my major tone adjustments with the graphic EQ. For me a Mark series amp without it, or atleast without putting one in the loop was WAY to thin and harsh.

Seem to me the Mark sims pretty much react the same.

I go bass 3, mid 3, treble 6, then go ahead and tone shape with the graphic EQ and can very quickly find what I am looking for.

The key to take from all of that is bass no higher then 3, and do all your major tone shaping with the EQ
 
tguitar said:
I'm actually having the opposite issue recently. I run almost the same rig 2 90 but I use a 4/12 recto cab. I keep finding that all my mesa amps are really, really bright - almost piercingly so. I have to keep the presence knob completely off on my 2 90 and everything is dialed very dark on the axe. I also roll off the top end of the global eq, but still the end result is bright sounding. How do you run your 2 90?
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I run my 2 90 with the presence on half. I personally like a bright sound. How about other amp sims, are they really dark as opposed to the Mesa? The Rectos sound bright on the Axe Fx 2, but I use have a 94 Dual Recto and a 2008 Roadster and they were bright also as opposed to all my Marshall's. But to my ears the brightness from the Marshals is different than the Rectos. I think the Marshall brightness comes form the front end and the Recto's ( depending which channel you use comes the back end of the preamp or the power amp since I can get more if a "twang" from a Marshall.
You're probably have V30's in your Recto cab which to my ears are quite bright as opposed to all my Scumback speakers or even Greenbacks 25's.
What pickups are you using? I use different guitars with different pickups and the sounds are drastically different so I have different settings for each guitar.
 
sarge said:
I no longer have my Mark IV to side by side compare them, but for me it sounds pretty much the way I expected.

Things I had to do with my real Mark IVb

1. Bass could not be higher then 3 (on the 1 to 10 scale, not clock hands). Anything higher was pure flub
2. Mid also needed to stay around 3-4 or else it got muddy
3. Treble was like a gain knob. Adjust to taste along with the gain.

Now, once you did the 3 above, you were left with a fairly thing sounding amp.

So now to get back all that bass you I dialed out, I did all my major tone adjustments with the graphic EQ. For me a Mark series amp without it, or atleast without putting one in the loop was WAY to thin and harsh.

Seem to me the Mark sims pretty much react the same.

I go bass 3, mid 3, treble 6, then go ahead and tone shape with the graphic EQ and can very quickly find what I am looking for.

The key to take from all of that is bass no higher then 3, and do all your major tone shaping with the EQ
Click to expand...

I agree that the Mark series amps really need the Graphic eq to get them to sound good.
The only one that I had that sounded good to my ears was my old 60 watt Mk 2c( no plus) with no eq.
I used to use a voltage regulator and crank the master up to 7 with all the knobs pulled up, the bass at 4, treble on 8, mids at 5. I used to set the voltage regulator between 85 to 100, 90 being the sweet spot. I used it in stereo with a crappy Fender 75 and 2 1974 Marshall cabs with an old Ibanez Analog delay set a doubler and it sound fantastic! I used that set up for years.
Later on I got a 100 watt Mk 2 C+ and it sounded ok but not hear as good as Mk 2 C.
 
eljodon said:
The difference in volume is quite a lot. Even when I switch between the Boogie and a the Friedman HBE with the master volume at almost the same setting.
I use the filter block to increase the volume for leads when using Scenes.
Some amp aims are louder than others. Like the Vox compared to a Marshall and the Power ball
Click to expand...

What Simeon says. Just use Amp Level (not Master) to increase/decrease the volume to the desired level. it doesn't matter if you have one amp at -18 and the other at +15 dB (although this would raise questions about your preset design).

It's not quite possible to compare amp levels. For example the Vox is modeled as a non-MV amp. Therefore it defaults to MV at max. The Powerball has a MV. The Vox and Powerball, when setting their Drive and MV at identical values, will not have the same level. Just like their real counterparts won't. It's not a problem.

P.S. For the record, I've just been watching Tom Quayle's fw 10 review video. The USA Lead factory preset he plays (11:40) sounds pretty much like a Mark to me.
http://licklibrary.ceros.com/iguitarmag/issue18/page/68
 
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[soundcloud] https://soundcloud.com/asolberg/temp-mark-iv-comparison [/soundcloud]

Ok, I did a short recording to see if anyone can hear what I'm talking about. First part is Petruccis isolated guitar track from Fatal Tragedy in mono, then I play the same.

This is the patch:

AMP: Usa Lead Brt +
Drive 7
Bass 1
Mid 3
Treb 6.5
Pres 3
Deph 0
Master 3.5
Switched from Triode to Pentode

PEQ: the V-curve explained on the wiki
CAB: Ownhammer Recto V30 + SM57
TM: Tone matched the original

The overall tone is kinda close, but there are two major differences. Firstly there's a lot more energy in the original. It's like the original has a lot of more gain, but a sort of different gain than I get by increasing the drive or treble. If add more drive it just gets more distorted and harsh. Second, the low end and mids sounds much more tight and compressed. And the low end is kind of more in "the background", just "complimenting" the tones that are played so that each note on the lower strings still is really clear. On my patches I always feel that the background is too much "in your face", overwhelming the overall tone and the tone separation is almost lost on the lower strings.

I've about this before but I seem to fail to describe the issue, and it is hard to explain. I have had these issues consistently over the years even after tweaking about every parameter there is, and after upgrading to the II. This is not about getting an identical tone as the original, I just want to be able to get that massive OOOMPH but still have note clarity on the lower strings, but I don't feel I'm getting anywhere close.
 
try messing with the input trim and master trim. it will liven up the sound without adding distortion, but definitely make it hotter
 
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