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Wish MESA BOOGIE JP-2C

Discussion in 'Axe-Fx II Wish List' started by Hyper Planet, Jan 27, 2016.

  1. Fl7x

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    Uhm... Just count how many Marshall and modded Marshall clones we have (redundant tones as you say) and then count the Mesas.
    I'm up to new amps even if I'm not going to use them, I really don't know how anyone would be against a new amp even if that amp is not his cup of tea.

    If you want a Nuno Randall, cool. Make a Wish Thread, but not derail other wishes threads.
     
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  2. JJunkie

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    Why not wait for next year's release, which will no doubt be better, the JP17-IIC+, commemorating 17 years of JP with ern--- oh wait. wrong thread
     
  3. #23 zenaxe, Feb 2, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
    zenaxe

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    LOL. You don't get it do you? I wasn't requesting those things; I was commenting on why there is an argument here and the psychology of GAS. How can you derail a wish thread? The point of these is to chat about what new features we would find desirable or not. I was trying to explain why some folks find this amp a complete snore and others are like "the Grail!!", when, again, no one here has even experienced the amp first hand...

    So... I totally understand why you are GASsing for a model; but just saying as an 'objective' not under the JP influence observer, it IS a pretty redundant request. It is a tweaked reissue of an amp we have multiple channels of in the Axe.

    So, you want to count Mesas? Okay:

    That includes 4 variants of the amp this request is essentially a reissue of and *Ten* Mark channels not even counting the Triaxis which are actually 'preamp' versions of the Mark channels bringing us to what 14? Like I said, I understand why you 'wants' it. But I'm just explaining why some folks might see it as not that desirable in the large scope of things.

    And yeah, we have a zillion Marshalls and Fenders, too, that was the point. Those are all crazy well represented. I wasn't trying to request more Marshall flavors, either, I was trying to show how it is easy to want more of stuff you already have using an example of an amp a Mesa fan might not care about...

    Truth is, I'd *much* rather see something completely orthogonal that is not well represented in the AFX at all than yet another Mark OR Marshall:

    Hiwatt
    Orange Thunderverb
    Matamp/Green
    Sunn
    Randalls
    A different Bad Cat
    A different Budda Model
    Fryette/VHT
    Rivera
    Some Fuzzes.

    There are a lot of amazing amps that are not well represented in the Axe and yeah, some of these overlap with existing Marshalls/Mesas, et al.

    It's cool. If Cliff deems it desirable or JP loans him an amp or requests it, I'll gladly enjoy it in spite not jonesing for it prior. My comment was mostly about the psychology of GAS rather than sayin 'my GAS is better than your GAS'. Cliff could stop now (please don't! ;) ) and we would have more than a lifetime's worth of models.

    Not really against it. Mostly commenting on why some people do not see this amp as a big deal and others are so excited; Marshall was used as an example because we don't need another one of those either so from your perspective it is like the Mesa request is to a Marshall guy.

    As for development, I guess my only real issues is that Cliffs resources ARE limited though. AFAIK, he is the only person @ FAS who can add a model and I would much rather see him chasiing down stuff that is not already well covered or more rare. I will probably be able to go play that Mesa at a local shop if nothing else. I've never even seen some of those amps I listed above in the flesh but many consider them to be mind blowing.

    In the end the only vote that matters is Cliffs; this ain't a democracy. ;)
     
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  4. TheTrooper

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    That god for that.
    I'd rather put a bullet in my skull than have democracy in a Forum.

    o_O
     
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  5. #25 Fl7x, Feb 2, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
    Fl7x

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    First Off, I'm not GAS'ing for that amp. It would be cool to have it, I'm a Boogie guy after all (check my avatar), but I don't really GAS for it.

    I was just saying that there are a lot more Marshalls and Modded Marshalls (clones) than Boogies and I don't see legit to come to a "Wish Thread" to say NO.

    I'm with you that MAYBE I would rather see something like the amp list you posted, but make a thread and wish for it, not come to another thread to say "NO, I prefer x amp, we have a lot of Boogies already!" I would rather see more FXs or FX improvements than more amps, but I'm not coming here to say "No more Boogies, give me Effects instead"

    As you say, the only vote that matters is Cliff's vote.

    And regarding the Mark channels, and specifically the IIC+ I'm just going to quote the Man himself.:

    Peace!
     
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  6. brokenvail

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    Unfortunately I think it is part marketing for Mesa. They def added cool features. 3 channels with 2 GEQ. As fas as a physical amp goes that is pretty awesome BUT what leaps out at me is that Mesa always said they could not make a 2c+ any more. That they couldn't get all the original parts needed ect so they moved on and have evolved to what they make now. Is that not why the 2c+ sells on the used market for so much? If that is true how in the world can I believe that this JP amp is a true c+ with some modern enhancements. Sounds like BS to me. I think it has cool features and the sound clips I heard sound great but either they lied about not being able to make a c+ or they are lying about this amp being a "real" c+ with enhancements..

    If cliff deems it worthy he will added it and I am ok with that. I would love to see a Boogie Stiletto but that is prob another topic huh?
     
  7. #27 JJunkie, Feb 2, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
    JJunkie

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    It might also depend on when they made that comment (I have no idea about it), and how things can change over time
     
  8. Hyper Planet

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    as you know these're just 9 real Amps the other are their different modes, That's not a big number for a huge name like MESA/BOOGIE in the Axe-Fx II, To me Mark IIC+ is a Icon in electric guitar Amplifier history, even If the existence IIC+ is 90% close to JP 2C, still it has worth to be in the Axe-Fx II, why?, because I believe details are so important in every angle of life and it applies to the music as well,
    IMHO Pay attention to the very details aspect of everything make you stand out separate you and make you identifiable
    Not to say I'm still very happy with the existence IIC+'s and also if Cliff say No to this amp, then I proudly use the present IIC+'s for all my guitar solos N some Riffs,

    ''Life is too short'' I have to make music with the Axe-Fx II as much as I can :)
     
  9. #29 ConnorGilks, Feb 7, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2016
    ConnorGilks

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    Great, but that quote isn't relevant to this amp, because it's a IIC+ circuit, with additional features. Not a different circuit. Meaning the only real question left is about the "SHRED mode", which probably isn't hard to do with the AxeFX II as is. Let me give you some quotes from Petrucci and Mesa to prove my point:

    Reference:



    Watch the whole video, read the description, and read the comments. It's a IIC+ with extra features, NOT with a different circuit. As I said, the only real question is the "SHRED mode", which I doubt is anything so notable that it would be difficult to do with the AxeFX II as it stands. It would really only be adding a "SHRED mode Amp Model" for the sake of convenience. But if that were a good enough reason, we'd have Blackstar models in the AxeFX too, for example. But you can easily get those tones with other amp models, which is why Cliff hasn't included them, among many other amp models.

    If he adds it, great, but I don't think you truly understand what this amp is.
     
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  10. Fl7x

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    Ha!
    Seriously?

    Please, buy one when it's available, open the guts and of course, like you've seen and owned a lot of IIC+ in your life, tell me that it's the same amp.


    Oh, you like Quotes:

    In both Channels 2 and 3 of the JP-2C, we have removed the VOLUME 1 Control and the LEAD MASTER control from the Panel Layout as compared to the LEAD Mode of the original MARK IIC+ in favor of user simplicity. The LEAD MASTER is a largely redundant control here in the JP-2C and its setting has a very minimal role in the sound. The VOLUME 1 is a bit more sensitive and critical, and here in the JP-2C it is preset internally (as we did in our MARK V) to it’s optimum setting for each Channel.

    In addition to the VOLUME 1 and LEAD MASTER control deletions from the original circuit, we’ve modified the PULL SHIFT feature layout of the original IIC+ to both simplify and enhance both high gain Channels 2 and 3. All PULL SHIFTS that were possible in the original IIC+ LEAD Mode are internally set to their optimized settings based upon the historical polling of savvy MARK IIC+ aficionados, artists and the MESA Design Team.

    In addition to these changes to the original circuit, we have added two new PULL SHIFT options on the JP-2C. A PULL GAIN on the GAIN control and a PULL PRES (shift) on the PRESENCE control."

    More quotes:

    From the Mark V manual:
    "Mark IIC+ is exactly that. This mode is a faithful - down to the last detail - recreation of the LEAD Mode of this legendary Unit."

    I see.. In the Mark V we have a real IIC+ too.

    Quoting Cliff again:
    Even a IIB that has a lot more in common to a IIC+ than the JP2C and sounds different.

    When you know what a reissue is call me. That's not faithful reissue of the original, It's a SIGNATURE IIC+. It may have more in common to the original IIC+ that the Mark V or the Triaxis, but it's ANOTHER amp voiced like a IIC+... Well, voiced like how JP likes his IIC+.
     
  11. #31 ConnorGilks, Feb 7, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2016
    ConnorGilks

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    Whoa there, cowboy. It's just an amp, man. Step away from the computer, take a deep breath, and maybe lay off the coffee. ;)

    The changes you've cited here do not change the base tone, and that is the argument here. Control changes mean nothing! Removing controls simply means the current AxeFX II models are more flexible than that of the Petrucci signature. Adding shift knobs, removing controls (limiting flexibility), and moving certain parameters to be on different physical knobs does not make a new digital amp model necessary, it simply means that you need to change some settings when using the current IIC+ model.

    I can whine about how the AxeFX II doesn't have Blackstar's ISF knob, but I'm willing to bet it's because Cliff knows fully well that it's easy to do within the AxeFX II by simply changing some settings to a Marshall amp.

    The entire argument of everyone in this thread is that the changes made to the amp are NOT out of the realm of what the AxeFX II is already fully capable of. The amp models are not limited to what the real amps can do, that's the point of the unit, you have the flexibility beyond what the real things can do.
     
  12. #32 FractalAudio, Feb 7, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
    FractalAudio

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    The Axe-Fx can do far more than any amp can. Instead of begging for yet another rehash of a 30-year old circuit why not explore what you can do with all the incredible features available to you? At the end of the day the main tool that amp designers use is frequency response. They shape the input response and the output response. I bet most of them aren't even aware of the amazing difference a little tweak to the bias point can make (see Preamp Bias parameter). Put a graphic or parametric EQ before the amp block and another one after (or use the EQ in the block). Experiment with different amounts of Negative Feedback. Etc.
     
  13. Fl7x

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    The funny thing is that as I stated before I'm not GAS'ing at all for that amp. I'm really happy with the IIC+ (and other Mesas) we have now, and I don't use "stock amps", I like to "mod" the amp models (tweaking adv. parameters) to have my tone based on the amp modelled. If I was GAS'ing for it I'd buy it like I did with my Triaxis, my Mesa Recto Pre, my 2:90, my F-50, and more.

    And you were not arguing about the tone (that I'm pretty sure we can get tweaking the actual model or even other Mark models) but the circuit and the amp itself. You were heading directly to me telling me that "I don't really understand what this amp is about" as if you knew everything about it because you read some marketing words (that you bolded) watched a video that is made to sell you the amp and read some comments on a Youtube channel (yeah, great sources).

    Besides the tone, using your words, "I don't think you truly understand what this amp is", that's a Signature IIC+, not a faithful representation (reissue) of the original besides what JP or Mesa says.

    I'm off, because I'm derailing the thread, taking it to a personal side and I don't want it to be closed. The OP don't deserves that.
    Peace!
     
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  14. Hyper Planet

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    Thank you very much for your response and tips as well, I will try them today.
     
  15. shredi knight

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    I guess the only thing to do is have Cliff add a JP-2C model to the Axe-Fx so we can see whether or not it differs from the IIc+ models we already have.


    There......................it's settled. :)
     
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  16. ConnorGilks

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    That's exactly what I was arguing, as were other people in this thread. That's the whole point of a new amp model, isn't it? Because it's supposed to have a different tone, why else would you add a new amp model? My argument is that the "circuit changes" that were made are not ones that change the tone so drastically that it would require a new amp model in the unit. It's that simple.

    So you admit it, adding this amp model would be pointless.

    You were arguing the amp was a different enough circuit that warranted a new amp model. Cliff himself has just stated that isn't the case. Do you really need to argue that further? I never claimed to know everything about it, I was telling you, based on what information is currently available, we have no reason to believe that anything noteworthy impacting the base tone itself has been changed.

    You mock the source, but considering it's an official video from Mesa, a demo by the signature artist, the comments I was referring to were all from Mesa, and this is all the information we have, it's a no brainer. It's the best resource we have until it comes out. You can laugh at the "marketing talk" all you want, but Cliff has clearly stated that there is no point in adding this amp model because the AxeFX II is already fully capable of mimicking the rather minor changes. That's been my point the entire time, the base tone is not different enough, the circuit is not different enough, to warrant a new amp model.

    First you say it's a reissue (meaning some modifications), and now you're saying it's not a reissue, but a signature IIC+? Okay....

    You can argue all you want, semantics or otherwise, but the final authority - Cliff himself - has stated clearly that the tone is not different enough to warrant a new amp model, and you can recreate the JP model in the AxeFX II already. Bottom line.
     
  17. GreatGreen

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    My experimentation led me to find the best of all possible Mark Series tones for me, actually.

    Of all the classic Mesa/Boogie Mark Series high gain sounds, turns out I like the Triaxis + Mark Series 5-band EQ take on the tone the best. It has the sharp, tight crunch of the classic Mark amps, but it also has the depth and wallop of more modern high gain amps mixed in there as well... and up until like last year with the release of the stand alone 5-band EQ from Mesa, you couldn't even find that tone with traditional real world tube gear.

    Never would have discovered that combo without the Axe.
     
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  18. Chronos

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    So I'm much too lazy to make a sound clip to prove what I'm saying for all you guys, but I just went and fiddled with the IIC+ model after watching the above video and found some absolutely mind blowing results :eek:

    On the IIC+ Bright/Deep model turning the Presence Freq up to 6, and having the Fat switch on transformed the thing into an absolute modern sounding beast. Set the appropriate "V" shape Petrucci settings on the EQ page and pair it with Cab Pack 7 for pure JP toan. I'm running Q101 still (I just realized the firmware shares the name of a popular Chicago radio station) so play with the settings to what sounds best for you.

    Cliff is absolutely right...we already have the basic same circuit and amp model along with all the other tools to shape the thing into a modern sound. The slight change to the tonestack from the Fat switch, and a more useable modern presence knob is all it took here. The JPIIC+ still looks like a wonderful amp to physically own, but experimenting slightly with the Axe-Fx delivers very similar results and already has all the other modern features they added.
     
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  19. FractalAudio

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    This guy gets it and even figured out the Fat Switch part. The key to a good Boogie sound, IMO, is the Fat Switch. This is the treble Pull Shift on the IIC+ and the Pull Fat on the Mark IV. Mesa knew this and the Lead 2 modes on the Triaxis all had the treble shift engaged by default.
     
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  20. Chronos

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    Thanks for the huge boost to my street cred Cliff
     
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