Matrix GT1000FX - Mesa Fifty/Fifty A/B

maxdown

maxdown

Fractal Fanatic


Tried a quick and dirty recording in a room of the Axe2 using a couple of presets and A/B'ing a Matrix GT1000FX and a Mesa Fifty/Fifty

It's not well recorded - plus very reflective walls. Used a Behringer B1 Condenser mic about 18 inches from a 2x12 EVM12L pine open back cab. The sound in the room was much more pleasing - maybe will try a close mic and do it again better sometime.

It was pretty damn loud in the room - I had the Mesa on Normal power with the channel volumes around 3 and Presence 0 - it's such a LOUD amp - I had to wind the Matrix up pretty high to match it.

Presets used were - Factory stock preset 000 Bassman 59 - No FX and No Cab and then secondly I (very quickly) dialled in a preset using the Cali Leggy - again no FX and no Cab

No preset tweaking was done between power amp swapping - no post eq added - just mic via Motu 828 straight into Logic.

I tried to match levels between the 2 poweramps when recording so same dbs were hitting the mic each time - unfortunately they were hitting stone walls and rattling things all over the room too!

The Matrix is the first amp in each pair of recordings. I also apologise for the playing - I've no idea why I decided to try and play that Back on the streets riff .... haven't heard the song in years - and it shows! Gary may rise and haunt me for murdering it .... I might also have had the guitar volume rolled off slightly in the Mesa version by the sound of things (I wasn't sitting directly in front of the cab as it was a mite loud).

Although it might not seem so here - the Matrix sounded a bit flatter than the Mesa - but I did have to push up the volumes on it way more than the Mesa
 
50/50 is definitely brighter and "boxier" sounding. (not a lot but It's there)
I noticed that right away when I switched to my ART SLA2 from my 50/50.
Now mine does not have the deep mod does yours?
and ya isn't that 50/50 a loud mofo, it squashes the Art, I couldn't gig with the Art but for home playing it's perfect.
 
Maxdown

Its good that you point out the conditions in which you record this and, you basically said “less than ideal”.

First, of don’t apologize! When guys like you do this A/B testing, I for one appreciate it ALLOT!! And I know I would not be alone. With what we are all going for, whether it be tube/SS, real cab/FRFR. We all suffer from the same thing (availability to mix and match). Most decisions are made on “flavor of the day” or someone’s word and of course “buy it and try it”. It would be great to go check out a few of the most commonly used amps and cabs for our application (Fractal community) at the local store but we can’t to some degree. And there is decisions like should I go tube or SS, you can read all you want but the videos and sound clips just help it all come together a little easier.

Second as for the quality of your clips I think you did a good job, everything seems to be represented well! I was a bit surprised how the 50/50 sounded a bit boxy, is it running 6L6’s ?? I remember that amp to be a bit more open.

John
 
I suspect old tubes don't help :) It's got 6L6s & has the deep mod. I'm retubing it with JJs I think.
 
Nice comparison. I will say its SO difficult to gauge on clips OR on write ups :( I do both in an attempt to get things across. the most difficult bit to me, is that EQ differences WILL be there - even between two valve or two SS amps, but this can be EQd to taste. some will prefer the natural sound of one amp while others prefer another. What is important I guess, is (using that dreaded term again) "feel". Its very difficult to show in clips, or describe in words, what an amp is like to play through - from a players perspective. How does it give, how does it bloom, how does it sustain and feedback, how dynamic is it etc etc etc - and unfortunately these are the most important thing - above the actual tone.

Still - from the clips the Matrix sounds a little duller, while the Mesa sounds a little boxier. Personally Id take the dull as the tone can be brightened up - BUt not if that dullness is actually a response thing not an EQ thing. by the same token you COULD say the Matrix is smoother while the Mesa is rawer. Again - different takes on the same difference nd which you think fits better would be personal.

So So So difficult with decent SS options now on the table (and of course interesting FRFR solutions soon to be available). Theres a lot of great choices available now (not so 4 years back :( ) and whatever your preference or priorities there is something to suit everyone.

Nice work though.
 
The most difficult part of it all was volume matching the 2 amps - the Mesa is shockingly 'loud' in comparison to the Matrix in terms of output volume settings. I know the Mesa is practically at full volume by about 5/10 and most all that happens after that is more and more tube saturation/compression - but at above volume 5 it's a struggle to control it on a 2x12 - a 4x12 (or 2) would be maybe better.

I found myself lowering the Axe output into the Mesa at 3 as compared to the Matrix at 75% vol levels - but there was still quite a bit of scope to increase output at preset level so I reckon thats an area to be careful with in order to get the best from the Matrix.

The 50/50s tubes are in poor condition and long overdue a change - so I'd expect some extra bass and a little smoother mids to re-appear after this happens.

But I do like the Matrix and it should be easier to dial a good tone in that can be matched fairly close by a cab IR for DI'ing.
 
my 50/50 does not have the deep mod and the difference between it and the Art SLA2 is much more profound.
My 50/50's "boxiness' is much more obvious than it is here with yours.
My tubes are old as well, I have some fresh JJ 6L6's maybe I'll swap them tonight and do another comparison tool.
I don't think I've lost any "feel" going to the Art, coming out of my mesa 2X12 cab it still feels the same to me.
 
paulmapp8306 said:
Still - from the clips the Matrix sounds a little duller, while the Mesa sounds a little boxier. Personally Id take the dull as the tone can be brightened up - BUt not if that dullness is actually a response thing not an EQ thing. by the same token you COULD say the Matrix is smoother while the Mesa is rawer. Again - different takes on the same difference nd which you think fits better would be personal.
Click to expand...

I had this same impression.
Eq seems like it could certainly get them very close.
 


I ran just one speaker (EVM-12L) and close mic'ed it this time - got rid of a lot of phasing/comb filtering and room reflections compared to last recording.

Used the Friedman HBE (spent zero time dialling it to be nice tho) with just amp block - no cab and no FX blocks and then American Clean - no cab but left the factory delay/Reverb blocks in.

My final offering ...... promise!
 
In these clips I definitely prefer the Mesa. The Mesa clips sounded like a good sounding amp while the GT clips sounded plasticky, but recording is a big part of this. They both work and of course the Axe can be tuned any which way to work with the GT as well as the Mesa.
 
Indeed. the Mesa clips are clearly louder - just loook at the hight of the waveform for the clean. On the gain side the same - though its closer - The Mesa clip (particularly toward the end) is almost flat, possible showing some compression from the power amp (which with the AFX is something you dont really want even if it sounds better - the patch needs tuning to add that in the AFX). Im also guessing the patches were stock - ie they wernt tuned to each amp? As I have pointed out before - when using a Ss amp (ANY SS amp) v A Valve amp (ANY valve amp) some of power section parameters need changing - purly to add/remove the characteristics the real valve power stage adds.

However, i do agree. Based on those two clips the Mesa would be a clear winner.
 
I think the challenge is going to be getting some of that clarity and separation that the Mesa gives in the clean/edgy presets - hi-gain presets should be simpler to eq into shape.

I probably need to really try and IR match the cab now and work on monitors to get a decent FRFR output for presets and then look at ways to tweak Out 2 to suit.
 
maxdown said:


I ran just one speaker (EVM-12L) and close mic'ed it this time - got rid of a lot of phasing/comb filtering and room reflections compared to last recording.

Used the Friedman HBE (spent zero time dialling it to be nice tho) with just amp block - no cab and no FX blocks and then American Clean - no cab but left the factory delay/Reverb blocks in.

My final offering ...... promise!
Click to expand...


Two things ... firstly, looking at the trace for the first two sections, its pretty clear the Matrix is slightly louder, you can also see there is some headroom on the matrix, as the top of the trace has variations in it, so it still had some way to go before it maxxed out. The Mesa has clearly gone into clip and all the dynamic content has been lost .. hence the flat trace.

Second pair of sections, the levels are massively different ... 6 to 8db at least ... so its hard to compare them, at similar levels, it would be a lot closer in sound I think.

What is clear is the Mesa has a lot of "up front" gain, so it reaches full potential when the fed from the AxeFX with the pot at 2 or 3 ... its clearly designed with a different input sensitivity to the Matrix ... the ideal setup is that with the pot all the way round to 10, the signal out of the Axe just brings the amps to the point of clipping ... its easy to confuse "has a lot of gain" with "louder" ... yeah, the Mesa hits full loud at 3 on the dial, but turn it up to 10 and its not going to get any louder, just more clipped, I dont think you reached full power on the Matrix yet, ultimately, that will be louder, look at the levels on that trace, the Matrix is clearly a couple of dB louder in the first section and hadn't maxxed out .. it will go louder still I think. The two amps have massively different input sensitivity, and trying to compare them using the same output levels from the Axe is not going to give good results, you're going to have to set the output level of the Axe up to match the amps to get proper results .. its clearly too much level for the Mesa already (driving it into clip) and not enough for the Matrix ...
 
You had power amp sim on on these, right?

Seems that people here have a much different views on the "boxiness" description than meself btw! In my world the Matrix had much more boxiness to it than the Mesa. Not discussing their qualities here, just trying to agree on descriptions 8) Boxiness to me is excaggeration of frequencies in the 500Hz area, the dominant frequencies when tapping a cardboard box. But there may just be language barriers at work?

Anyway, the differences were huge. Had no idea they woud be that big...
 
Trazan said:
Anyway, the differences were huge. Had no idea they woud be that big...
Click to expand...

?? The Mesa is designed from the outset to be "full of 6L6 tone" and "with enhanced warmth" (their words) ... its purpose in life is to color the sound with Mesa tone and warmth .. and it does this perfectly.

The Matrix is designed to be clean, reproducing what you put in with nothing added or taken away.

If you happen to always want that "Mesa 6L6 Sound", then the Mesa will do the job perfectly.

If you want to define your soundin the AxeFX, then the a clean amp will give you that felxibility. You pays your money, your takes your choice. No great suprises there for me, apart from the huge difference in input sensitivity and the Mesa clipping off hard so early, that clipping will be very definitely coloring the sound .. which is fine, if that the effect you are looking for.
 
@Trazan - yes Power Amp sims were on

The thing to remember here is that the Matrix recordings were supposed to be the 'reference' - I didn't dial them in to be finished/usable/desirable by any means - literally just bypassed FX and cab blocks on factory 5.07 presets and stuck a looper on. The Mesa recordings were to show the difference at the same settings - but as CrazyTrainer points out - I probably had the input on the Mesa set far too low to leave it headroom and it was probably clipping/distorting the 12AX7s at input stage and not letting the 6L6's do their thing.

I know the Matrix will work - I've heard plenty of evidence of that from GT800FX users. I just need to dial in the correct settings - but I'm not really keen to start getting too immersed in that until the new FW comes out ... so I'm in limbo at the moment.
 
The Mesa obviously has the output OT and speaker interaction whereas the GT is a simple voltage source for the speaker. In order to get that tube-y feel from the GT, you'll have to play around with a few parameters - 1) decrease damping, 2) increase sag, 3) set speaker resonant freq to ~60Hz for EVM12L in open back cab 4) play around with speaker sim page. You have to simulate the output impedance and speaker interaction in the Axe to get it to be more tube-y. I have to do this with my Carvin DCM as well.
 
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maxdown said:
I know the Matrix will work - I've heard plenty of evidence of that from GT800FX users. I just need to dial in the correct settings - but I'm not really keen to start getting too immersed in that until the new FW comes out ... so I'm in limbo at the moment.
Click to expand...

This is the only reason I'm anxious for the 6.0 release. I too just switch power amps from tube to solid state and from what I've read 6.0 is huge so don't wanna start tweaking until then!
 
maxdown said:
@Trazan - yes Power Amp sims were on....
Click to expand...

Wait. Shouldn't the power amp sims when running thru the Mesa have been turned OFF? And, when running thru the Matrix, they should have been turned ON. I'd like to see (hear) the results of this test.
 
Well - I was thinking along the lines that if I was using 1 amp block in a chain and I was using the Mesa it would have to accept the Power Amp on because I'd like to send a FOH signal out of Out 2 ..... but will see if I get a few mins when I'm back in the 'loud' room to test that for you anyway.
 
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