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Wish Matching cab suggestion

Patzag

Fractal Fanatic
I mean why do we even have a 1x8 model
My first amp had an oval 6" speaker. It was a total POS but it was my first amp!

I completely understand the OPs request and can definitely go along with that. My guitar tone education was very slow. There was no internet when I started and no way to try a million amps. In France, there were few guitar shops and fewer that allowed you to touch the gear and even less willing to talk to you about gear. So I was an ignoramus for a long, long time. And I suspect there are many among us who just want to plug in a sound great and have NO IDEA what sounds good. I didn't. I had no sense of what was RIGHT and I was not educated enough to be able to make an informed decision. That took years.

But even now, many many years later and having had much more experience and discernment as to what sounds good or bad (to me!), there is so much to learn. And with 250 amp models, many of which we have never seen personally, much less played, a little help in the form of a suggested cab block would go a long way.

Some here snicker at it as unnecessary. It possibly is. We could survive without it. That does not make it any less a valid Wish List item which would make a lot of people happy.
 

chris

Legend!
a little help in the form of a suggested cab block would go a long way.

Some here snicker at it as unnecessary. It possibly is. We could survive without it. That does not make it any less a valid Wish List item which would make a lot of people happy.
agreed. IMO, i think this is best done with example Presets. i'm not sure how i'd feel if i change amp types and my cab suddenly changes or anything like that. there's a lot to think about when designing this "simple" sort of thing.

we just got authentic controls which we haven't had for over 10 years, so maybe we'll see more similar things just like suggested cab. who knows.

i'm just trying to show an opinion of where it isn't absolutely "needed." an opinion. my opinion.
 

Bruce Sokolovic

Experienced
agreed. IMO, i think this is best done with example Presets. i'm not sure how i'd feel if i change amp types and my cab suddenly changes or anything like that. there's a lot to think about when designing this "simple" sort of thing.

we just got authentic controls which we haven't had for over 10 years, so maybe we'll see more similar things just like suggested cab. who knows.

i'm just trying to show an opinion of where it isn't absolutely "needed." an opinion. my opinion.
I see it more as either an ‘add matching cab’ button that is basically a shortcut to a cab block or even just written somewhere in the GUI for reference. I wouldn’t want my IR to just change on the fly either
 

Patzag

Fractal Fanatic
On the subject of implementation, I submit the easiest way would have to be from the cab block.
There could be a Basic Bank that is referenced to amps. The pull down menu or picker would have amp names that point to the cab that is deemed best suited to that amp. Assuming the cabs already exist in memory, it would just be an index pointing to the chosen cab.
I'm no programmer but it seems to me to be the smallest implementation route. Cross-block programming could be a real pain.
 

Bruce Sokolovic

Experienced
On the subject of implementation, I submit the easiest way would have to be from the cab block.
There could be a Basic Bank that is referenced to amps. The pull down menu or picker would have amp names that point to the cab that is deemed best suited to that amp. Assuming the cabs already exist in memory, it would just be an index pointing to the chosen cab.
I'm no programmer but it seems to me to be the smallest implementation route. Cross-block programming could be a real pain.
That’s a really good idea. Like a sub menu quick start.
 

Randalljax

Fractal Fanatic
Basically sounds like what you want is similar to what a few of the IR guys and Austin Buddy do

Something like ML greatest hits
Its 22 cabs 1 mixed IR
Each its got your Fender Vox Bogner
5153 Marshall etc etc its a very cool
Pack Imo because of this reason

Its allows me to quickly go through match up get great tones without option paralysis and ending up in the
Rabbit hole
 

Bruce Sokolovic

Experienced
Basically sounds like what you want is similar to what a few of the IR guys and Austin Buddy do

Something like ML greatest hits
Its 22 cabs 1 mixed IR
Each its got your Fender Vox Bogner
5153 Marshall etc etc its a very cool
Pack Imo because of this reason

Its allows me to quickly go through match up get great tones without option paralysis and ending up in the
Rabbit hole
This has me thinking what else would also be cool is custom IR menus and sub menus. For instance In the user bank:
Marshall>4x12>speaker>sm57 or similar. The menu can start off showing all your brand cabs, then menu them down to configuration and then mics and mic placements. To me at least, it’s a more logical organizational pattern than the current smorgasbord approach. The color coding of IRs is indeed helpful, but allowing a custom menu would let the user head in the exact direction he or she wants to go while filtering out everything else.
 
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Tahoebrian5

Fractal Fanatic
I usually read through yeks amp guide, then also google known artists that use the amp I’m working with. This will give you a range of speakers to look at.

Yes it would be nice if there was something built into Axe edit... even a text field. But in the now a little research on your part is not without its benefit.

One thing I’ve always taken to heart is this. When trying out a new amp model, try to approach it as if you just physically bought it. I’m sure you would research the crap out of it first. If you just randomly throw different cabs at it a twiddle knobs it would be a miracle if you got a nice tone going.

I’m all for easier/quicker though so I’m not disagreeing, just throwing it out there
 

Bruce Sokolovic

Experienced
I usually read through yeks amp guide, then also google known artists that use the amp I’m working with. This will give you a range of speakers to look at.

Yes it would be nice if there was something built into Axe edit... even a text field. But in the now a little research on your part is not without its benefit.

One thing I’ve always taken to heart is this. When trying out a new amp model, try to approach it as if you just physically bought it. I’m sure you would research the crap out of it first. If you just randomly throw different cabs at it a twiddle knobs it would be a miracle if you got a nice tone going.

I’m all for easier/quicker though so I’m not disagreeing, just throwing it out there
This also has merit. I’d say given my experience I’m familiar with a solid half of the models (In that I’ve actually played them). This leaves an awful lot of research on my part. Learning is still never a bad thing.
 

Randalljax

Fractal Fanatic
I watched a lot of Leon Todd tutorial
And one big thing that got me
Was dial the amp in to the IR not the the other way around i know we are getting a little off topic here
But it was a good tip
 

decreebass

Experienced
@chris I think a lot of it is psychological. I'm sure there are tons of cabs that sound great with all the amps, but there's that mental factor that has you questioning if the sound you're hearing, even though it may be good coming form 1x4" speaker, couldn't be better if it were coming from the actual cab that went with the amp. We hear tone with our eyes and judge tone based on what we think should be the correct configuration. So you're right, but the psychological aspect can't be ignored, no matter how immaterial it may actually be in a technical sense.

Interesting thing to note, too, is that I did end up taking a poll on the Helix page and the "amp+cab" block got the fewest votes by FAR. I think, though, in a way it's not fair since you can only have ONE cab, which cripples things if you're going for a bigger, stereo sound. It's a good starting point but it pigeon-holes you into only using a single mono cab. In any case, IRs and multiple cabs were the most popular.
 

unix-guy

Legend!
I watched a lot of Leon Todd tutorial
And one big thing that got me
Was dial the amp in to the IR not the the other way around i know we are getting a little off topic here
But it was a good tip
By comparison, Mikko (@ML SOUND LAB) has kind of said the opposite before: choose the Amp to go with the IR you want to use.
 

Randalljax

Fractal Fanatic
By comparison, Mikko (@ML SOUND LAB) has kind of said the opposite before: choose the Amp to go with the IR you want to use.
By comparison, Mikko (@ML SOUND LAB) has kind of said the opposite before: choose the Amp to go with the IR you want to use.


I think what ever works for me i like to grab a cab that isnt too woofy or sharp off the bat and is well balenced w my 80 low cut 10000hi defaults
Then its pretty easy
 

ML SOUND LAB

Cab Pack Wizard
Vendor
Just to be clear, I do it both ways but I definitely recommend not to choose an amp "just because" and try and force and compromise everything else to try and make your sound work. The IR is way more powerful than the amp block and with power comes great responsibility. I'd much rather have an IR that's incredible and then I can make multiple amps work with it. Countless people have come to me for tone advice that want to use something like FAS Modern "because someone important said that's the best amp sim" and then they're having a hard time making it sound good no matter what IR they're using. This is a bad idea IMHO.
 

Bruce Sokolovic

Experienced
Just to be clear, I do it both ways but I definitely recommend not to choose an amp "just because" and try and force and compromise everything else to try and make your sound work. The IR is way more powerful than the amp block and with power comes great responsibility. I'd much rather have an IR that's incredible and then I can make multiple amps work with it. Countless people have come to me for tone advice that want to use something like FAS Modern "because someone important said that's the best amp sim" and then they're having a hard time making it sound good no matter what IR they're using. This is a bad idea IMHO.
I’m confused if you feel matching cab options in general is a bad idea or if selecting an amp just because is a bad idea. Also, do you feel the current IR picker can be improved on as far as file management (like I suggested upthread)
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
@chris I think a lot of it is psychological. I'm sure there are tons of cabs that sound great with all the amps, but there's that mental factor that has you questioning if the sound you're hearing, even though it may be good coming form 1x4" speaker, couldn't be better if it were coming from the actual cab that went with the amp. We hear tone with our eyes and judge tone based on what we think should be the correct configuration. So you're right, but the psychological aspect can't be ignored, no matter how immaterial it may actually be in a technical sense.

Interesting thing to note, too, is that I did end up taking a poll on the Helix page and the "amp+cab" block got the fewest votes by FAR. I think, though, in a way it's not fair since you can only have ONE cab, which cripples things if you're going for a bigger, stereo sound. It's a good starting point but it pigeon-holes you into only using a single mono cab. In any case, IRs and multiple cabs were the most popular.


I 100% agree with you on the eyes vs ears thing and it’s a huge part psychological, with the reassurance and affirmation that comes with seeing the text say what we think it should say, or saying a word/brand that has expensive/luxury/rare connotations.

However, doing it unconsciously is one thing, but when we are aware of it of and still do it it’s another.

If we are made aware we aren’t make an honest evaluation with our ears, does it make sense to further enable that “eyes” psychology?

Shouldn’t we instead say “your right, I am letting my preconceived ideals cloud my judgement, I’m going to listen again and try to let my ears guide me”?
 

iaresee

Administrator
Moderator
Interesting thing to note, too, is that I did end up taking a poll on the Helix page and the "amp+cab" block got the fewest votes by FAR. I think, though, in a way it's not fair since you can only have ONE cab, which cripples things if you're going for a bigger, stereo sound. It's a good starting point but it pigeon-holes you into only using a single mono cab. In any case, IRs and multiple cabs were the most popular.
Data that invalidates our ideas is terrible data, indeed. ;)

Your reasoning behind why people find this feature underwhelming in the Helix really strikes at the heart of why it's not a great feature: the feature can't really know what people want. You said you wanted a feature to pair an amp with a cab. But in the quote above you've begun to intimate that you'd like the feature to actualy pick multiple IRs and pan them possibly. Already the idea of what a feature like this might do is being expanded to something far more complex and far less like the "make it pair up an amp with the real-life IR" request that started the thread.

Anything implemented here is going to be of limited usefulness and mostly underwhelming to the users in my opinion.

Paying someone like @austinbuddy for a curated collection of amp model and cabinet IR pairings gets you much better results in my experience and is generally worth the small monetary investment.
 

chris

Legend!
I’m confused if you feel matching cab options in general is a bad idea or if selecting an amp just because is a bad idea. Also, do you feel the current IR picker can be improved on as far as file management (like I suggested upthread)
he's saying what many of us here say:

people get an axe and have access to all these amps they've never tried. their guitar hero plays a Mesa, so they try all the Mesa models but it never sounds right. but they WANT to play a Mesa, even though they're in an Allman Brothers cover band. they need a Marshall type sound, but they just don't want to use a Marshall because they WANT to use a Mesa.

so they fight their minds and never get what they want when the answer is right there. and many times people blame the axe for "sounding bad" when they just are using the wrong amp in every way. but their wants, eyes, and thoughts prevent them from doing it.

Data that invalidates our ideas is terrible data, indeed. ;)

Your reasoning behind why people find this feature underwhelming in the Helix really strikes at the heart of why it's not a great feature: the feature can't really know what people want. You said you wanted a feature to pair an amp with a cab. But in the quote above you've begun to intimate that you'd like the feature to actualy pick multiple IRs and pan them possibly. Already the idea with what a feature like this might do is being expanded to something far more complex and far less like the "make it pair up an amp with the real-life IR" request that started the thread.

Anything implemented here is going to be of limited usefulness and mostly underwhelming to the users in my opinion.

Paying someone like @austinbuddy for a curated collection of amp model and cabinet IR pairings gets you much better results in my experience and is generally worth the small monetary investment.

agreed. i always think that the Preset is the best way to have "matched amps and cabs." either free or paid, the Preset allows someone to curate exactly what someone wants. rather than the machine trying to figure out what "ideal" means to you. there are millions of guitar players and the same amount of opinions of "good" "ideal" "best" and all the other words like that.
 

bradlake

Axe-Master
FWIW, I always felt the Amp+Cab blocks on Helix sounded putrid compared to using an amp with 3rd party IR...
the current best alternative as stated multiple times here....the AustinBuddy Naked Amps have superb matched cabs options.....
 
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