• We would like to remind our members that this is a privately owned, run and supported forum. You are here at the invitation and discretion of the owners. As such, rules and standards of conduct will be applied that help keep this forum functioning as the owners desire. These include, but are not limited to, removing content and even access to the forum.

    Please give yourself a refresher on the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up.

Make your IRs work for YOU!

shatteredsquare

Power User
Lol... I just found a thread from 2017 with this advice. Unfortunately I have the AX8.
That was my thread too, I didn't know it was phase adjustment then, I thought it was just diffusion doing some kind of voodoo and making it stereo. If the AX8 reverb block has the early reflections generator type, or another type with early reflections that can go down to size 1.00 you can do the same thing.
 

shatteredsquare

Power User
there is another parameter that i think is adjusting phase too, MIC DISTANCE on the cab parameters, but it sounds like it's linear (like it's just moving the start point of the IR file), i don't know what all this stuff does. it does help fine tune the bass node once you get the CAB ROOM dialed in, if you adjust the MIC DISTANCE it can help get closer to absolute zero, it's going in like 0.3mm increments. I need that level of adjustment in the CAB ROOM SIZE too (early reflections i guess?).
 

shatteredsquare

Power User
This is the last element to chasing reality. That's one stereo drum track, one mono guitar track, and a Sknote Disto-S on the master.


Fractal Axe-Fx III FW 2.03 Recto 1 Orange Modern, ML Sound Lab USA Djent SM57 A2, Kiesel Vader V6 25.5 scale SH-14/SH-2N. Toontrack EZ Drummer 2 Drumkit From Hell.(Sknote Disto-S on master to raise level)
 

Attachments

Last edited:

shatteredsquare

Power User
With the latest new cab block parameters for room size does this change anything ?
Yes it changes a little, room size is in metres now, from 3.00 to ???, and there are two room shapes now which resonate differently.

The best node is the first good one closest to zero, but there are more at different spots. With the updated algorithm there are a lot more nodes that actually sound good, before it was only a couple that would line up right, now there are a bunch, and you can get further out from zero and still get it to line up.

Mic spacing is doing something crazy though, I assumed it would just be stereo spread, but I'm starting to think it's spacing front to back too or something, the knob does weird things. As you adjust it, the panning jumps around, one ear just falls off out of phase, comes back in, goes back almost mono, flips sideways, spreads out again. Idk, I jiggle it till it's centered (with a volume block after the cab squeezing it down to mono) to find the sweet spot. I used to think it was just stereo spread and diffusion, but you can tune it in mono and it still lines up all the frequencies and auto EQs itself.

Once you get the cab room dialed in, cab mic distance can really get detailed to fine tune the node you want, it's in freakin fractions of a millimetre at a time. I love this thing so much.
 
Last edited:

shatteredsquare

Power User
With the latest new cab block parameters for room size does this change anything ?
on second look, don't bother, it doesn't work with the updated cab room, because they don't want it to work. they can make knobs and blocks do whatever they want, and it's doing all sorts of nonsensical arbitrary movements now, and changing, and starting spaced much further away from zero. that's funny stuff right there. :nomouth:

edit: i was using a cheap cab room sim to tune a makeshift comb filter just didn't know it. reverb isn't for comb filtering, so it's better to use a comb filter to do comb filtering. i pray the fractal gods will be forgiving of my lack of faith. :eek:

 
Last edited:

shatteredsquare

Power User
Cool. Will check them out. OK, so I think what's happening is you are taking the response of the IR and then applying a 'comb filtering' using the 'room' functions, to compliment and/or even-out the phase or otherwise positively change the tone. Is that it?
you called it dude, i was using a cheap room sim to tune a makeshift comb filter i just didn't know it. comb filtering is going to be the tone master key, i'll tell you that much. it's like being able to move the mic again after the IR has been printed.
 

shatteredsquare

Power User
it's a Schroeder Reverberator! i been jacking around with 4 comb filters for 6 hours, it just occurred to me to see if there is any MATH available that would give you time coordinates for an even distribution of pixie splatter.


https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/pasp/Schroeder_Reverberators.html

just need to get like two feet of stereo space between IR and face without the rest of the comb filtering tube-tone. I'm about to run an amp through Absynth and use 3 dang ol waveshapers
 

eppyfone

Member
I'm trying out your method, but I'm on the Ax8. I saw that you commented saying we can still do it with the reverb block. The thing is that the room size won't go below 1 and it goes up in increments of 0.1. Do you still think it should work?

Also, I read that you said it's easier by doing palm mutes and then lining up the lower end nodes. I'm trying to do that but I'm not sure what lining up the nodes actually does. Is it sort of like when you tune your strings by doing natural harmonics at the 5th and 7th fret, and then you try and make the wave noise fade out by, well... tuning the string? Is it meant to sound resonant and without and waves coming in and out? If so, I've done that, but when I play riffs, all that happens now is a big "push" of air whenever I'm playing palm muted notes, and it tires my ears out fairly quickly!

I'm sure I don't have this technique 100% down. Any further tips would be much appreciated!
 

shatteredsquare

Power User
@eppyfone what reverb types are in the AX8? You might be able to do it with early reflections.

'Tuning the node' is doing basically what you do when you walk around a room when a subwoofer is blasting, depending on where you are in the room you run into spots where the standing waves combine and it's way too woofy, and u run into other spots where nodes are phase canceling each other and there is no bass at all. In VR land it's not walking around though, it's changing the size of the room until the low end has enough room to stretch out, at least one wavelength worth, and the unicorn ears are in the right spot to catch that balanced middle ground, and send that out of your monitoring system.
 

eppyfone

Member
@eppyfone what reverb types are in the AX8? You might be able to do it with early reflections.
Here's the list:

  • Ambience
  • Asylum Hall
  • Cavern
  • Concert Hall
  • Deep Chamber
  • Deep Space
  • Drum Room
  • Gymnasium
  • Hallway
  • Huge Room
  • Large Cathedral
  • Large Chamber
  • Large Deep Hall
  • Large Hall
  • Large Plate
  • Large Room
  • Large Spring
  • Lg Tiled Room
  • Lg Wooden Room
  • London Plate
  • Medium Cathedral
  • Medium Chamber
  • Medium Hall
  • Medium Plate
  • Medium Room
  • Medium Spring
  • North Church
  • Rec Studio A
  • Rec Studio C
  • Rich Hall
  • Small Cathedral
  • Small Chamber
  • Small Hall
  • Small Plate
  • Small Room
  • Small Spring
  • South Church
  • Stone Quarry
  • Studio
  • Sun Plate
  • Tunnel
  • Vocal Plate
  • Wide Hall

'Tuning the node' is doing basically what you do when you walk around a room when a subwoofer is blasting, depending on where you are in the room you run into spots where the standing waves combine and it's way too woofy, and u run into other spots where nodes are phase canceling each other and there is no bass at all. In VR land it's not walking around though, it's changing the size of the room until the low end has enough room to stretch out, at least one wavelength worth, and the unicorn ears are in the right spot to catch that balanced middle ground, and send that out of your monitoring system.[/USER]
I see what you mean. Before when I was trying I was able to identify both extremes, but I'm not sure about the balanced middle ground. I take it it's meant to simply be some low end, but not to the point that it's subwoofy?

Thanks for the reply!
 
Last edited:

shatteredsquare

Power User
Can you upload the IR you're using, i can tune ambiance type to that and send u a Reverb block file to load into Axe-Edit...if that even works.
 

shatteredsquare

Power User
this is the bone of whatever it is i keep gnawing on...being able to move the unicorn ears around inside of a virtual space in front of the IR, and make that what your monitoring system spits out, to where you can move your virtual head around, no IR will be bad, they can all be perfect the way they were meant to sound. 2nd order mic positioning? Micing up an IR of a miced cab. It's really just phase shift. It's automatic equalization, fractal equalization, which makes it infinitely perfect if you do it right.
3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097494459230781640628620899862803482534211706798214808651328230664709384460955058223172535940812848111745028410270193852110555964462294895493038196442881097566593344612847564823378678316527120190914564856692346034861045432664821339360726024914127372458700660631558817488152092096282925409171536436789259036001133053054882046652138414695194151160943305727036575959195309218611738193261179310511854807446237996274956735188575272489122793818301194912983367336244065664308602139494639522473719070217986094370277053921717629317675238467481846766940513200056812714526356082778577134275778960917363717872146844090122495343014654958537105079227968925892354201995611212902196086403441815981362977477130996051870721134999999837297804995105973173281609631859502445945534690830264252230825334468503526193118817101000313783875288658753320838142061717766914730359825349042875546873115
That's not the way it works. 1" from the speaker is the near field. The response of a speaker in the near field is very different than the response in the far field. In the near field the response changes (drastically) across the face of the transducer. Even moving the mic a fraction of an inch will result in a very different sound.

10 ft. from the speaker is the far field and the response changes smoothly as you move across the field.

If the near field were the same as the far field then the sound wouldn't change as you moved the microphone and you could place the microphone anywhere on the face of the speaker. Anyone who has mic'd a speaker knows that this isn't the case.

This is advanced acoustics stuff. You can read about the various fields by searching the internet.
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/low-cut-high-cut.119906/page-4#post-1426474
 

Attachments

shatteredsquare

Power User
there is a correct combination somehow, 2/4/8/16 is one. 3/6/12/24 is one, i bet there are more/better patterns, if there was a knob tied to all of them that did the math and let you roll it back and forth by 0.01ms at a time, preferably smaller intervals than that, all the spaces in between would line up too, automatic EQ that's never wrong, to focus the beam pattern wherever you need it...getting closer...i keep digging...

You're never going to get a full-range monitor to sound like an amp in the room regardless of the IR used. One reason for this is dispersion. A traditional guitar cabinet has a beam pattern that decreases with increasing frequency. This means less high frequencies when listening off-axis. A full-range monitor will have more highs. Now some will argue that if you capture the traditional cab off-axis in the far field then you'll get the same thing but you won't because the monitor is not interacting with the environment in the same way. The traditional cab will send less frequency content to off-axis which is then reflected off the floor, walls and ceiling. The monitor will send more highs off-axis that are reflected. Our hearing relies a LOT on the spatial cues of reflection and the reflections will not be the same.

Compound the above with the fact that 99.9% of IRs are near field captures which sound nothing like the far field.

I believe trying to get a monitor to do amp in the room is a lesson in futility. If you really want that sound use a traditional guitar cab.
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fighting-my-clr.119812/page-6#post-1426275
 

Attachments

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
These IRs are getting out of hand. THERE ARE TOO MANY. If they all were awesome, wouldn't that be awesome? But alas, they are not all awesome. Would it be crazy cool if there was a way to fix them all to be awesome? What if I told you..........they are just out of phase. :eek: There is no such thing as a bad IR.

doesn't matter if it's a crap IR of an iPhone speaker, if you adjust the phase to put the unicorn ears in the right spot in the wavelength, you can grab the fundamental even if the mic was in the wrong spot when they hit record. in just 3 easy steps! (it works best with one mono IR panned center, mic distance proximity OFF, everything cab related off, just one mono IR panned center. with two IRs they interact and phase cancel each other in different spots and you don't get as rich of an output.)

...turn off all effects, reverb, delays, just listen to amp and cab.
1. Room level 100%, Room size 0%, Mic Spacing 100%

2. While playing, walk Room Size up by .01 increments and listen (turn up your bass). Somewhere between 0 and .20 there will be a sweet spot, most likely around .07 or .17

3. While playing, walk Mic Spacing down until it sounds/feels real to you. I stop about 20-25%. Now Walk Room Level back down to about 50%.

if you fix the phase of your IR and then go to turn your reverbs and effects back on, it translates craaaaaazy good down the chain to have an in-phase sound. o_O If you start with a crazy good IR (Like @ML SOUND LAB ) and do this to one of them, it is absolutely UNREAL how good it sounds. :D Post what you find!
Hard to know where to start with all this.

1. "Out of phase" in this context means nothing. Phase is a relative measurement. One IR cannot be "out of phase" as there is no reference. An IR can be "out of phase" with another IR if the mic distance was different when the IRs were obtained and the IRs were not either trimmed or minimum-phase transformed. However all the factory cabs are minimum-phase transformed so they are, by definition, "in phase" with each other.

2. I have no idea what "adjust the phase to put the unicorn ears in the right spot in the wavelength" or "grab the fundamental" could possibly mean in this context. It's gibberish. An IR doesn't have a wavelength since it's not a periodic waveform. Likewise an IR doesn't have a fundamental because it's not a periodic waveform.

3. While what you are doing may sound good (no idea, haven't tried it) it has nothing to do with "phase". What you are doing is putting peaks and notches in the spectrum with a very small room reverb. There are far better and analytical ways to do this, i.e. with the Filter/EQ blocks or Resonator block.

I don't mean to dampen your enthusiasm but posts like this spread misinformation. Instead I would recommend something along the lines of "Hey, try this with the Reverb block and see what you think. I'm not exactly sure what is happening but it sounds good to me".
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
Shatteredsquare, certainly been interesting reading, if nothing else. I'm a bit curious what type of background you have, as I saw you mention in another thread that your a truck driver for a living. Nothing at all wrong with, nor anything that anyone chooses to do for a living, but you certainly seem to be quite knowledgeable in the field of acoustics and signal processing etc, so I was simply curious if you previously worked in the industry, or academia etc.
 

fisioaura

Inspired
edit 16JAN2019: this whole thread topic was based on the cab block room parameter up to FW 2.03, it's doesn't work as described below after FW 2.04. It amounts to using early reflections to make a very small virtual space around the cab, to allow the low end time to hang in the air for long enough for the ear to perceive it. Two comb filters in parallel can do the same thing, one at 4 ms and one at 8 ms, 30% depth, reduce both levels by 12db each to account for fletcher munson. "not really sure what it's doing but it sounds cool." YMMV.
----------------------------------------------------

These IRs are getting out of hand. THERE ARE TOO MANY. If they all were awesome, wouldn't that be awesome? But alas, they are not all awesome. Would it be crazy cool if there was a way to fix them all to be awesome? What if I told you..........they are just out of phase. :eek: There is no such thing as a bad IR.

doesn't matter if it's a crap IR of an iPhone speaker, if you adjust the phase to put the unicorn ears in the right spot in the wavelength, you can grab the fundamental even if the mic was in the wrong spot when they hit record. in just 3 easy steps! (it works best with one mono IR panned center, mic distance proximity OFF, everything cab related off, just one mono IR panned center. with two IRs they interact and phase cancel each other in different spots and you don't get as rich of an output.)

...turn off all effects, reverb, delays, just listen to amp and cab.
1. Room level 100%, Room size 0%, Mic Spacing 100%

2. While playing, walk Room Size up by .01 increments and listen (turn up your bass). Somewhere between 0 and .20 there will be a sweet spot, most likely around .07 or .17

3. While playing, walk Mic Spacing down until it sounds/feels real to you. I stop about 20-25%. Now Walk Room Level back down to about 50%.

if you fix the phase of your IR and then go to turn your reverbs and effects back on, it translates craaaaaazy good down the chain to have an in-phase sound. o_O If you start with a crazy good IR (Like @ML SOUND LAB ) and do this to one of them, it is absolutely UNREAL how good it sounds. :D Post what you find!
So can you explain the current method to get that "alignement" in FW 10.01?
 
Top Bottom