Low watt tube power amp for breakup/warmth?

Hey guys! I am new here, and I of course searched for a thread that addresses this. If there is one please let me know. In the past 3 years I have been on a mission to educate myself as to what any amp can give you. Probably dropped 15K in that time. I'm not rich, I did a lot of creative deals and all of my clothes are verging on tatters. Whats funny? -the amp I had before this flurry of testing, actually came closer (power amp breakup)than the Goodsell(s) the Morgan and Bad Cat(s). The amp is a Framus Ruby Riot -a 30 watt Vox affair.

While it is an all around great amp, it really shines when the power section is pushed to breakup when you hit it hard with your playing. This was the one of the main effects that my study centered on. And while I found more than one amp that had nice breakup, I feel that no amp tube amp made has an adequate Tone Stack.

For high gain, I have ch.2 of the Framus and an Engl Invader. A Diezel VH4 arrives this week and I will choose between the Invader and it. These 2 will be my only amps.

The one thing that my study showed me is that what I am often looking for is a power amp breakup. Not the pre and not the speaker. At least not much.

During that time of testing, I was more than once obsessed with getting a Fractal Axe Fx. And as my study draws to a close, if finally have set my sights on it again. Ye Gods...

So here is the question. Have any of you run the Fractal into a stand-alone 30 watt tube power amp? Or even 15-25 watt. (Low watts provide breakup at manageable volumes.) Take care!

I am really looking forward to exploring the possibilities of this unit. Unless there is something I am missing, it is kinda the final frontier for me. I have seen it all... Extensively. I now want to experiment with an Axe FX. Maybe be next year I can afford a T-shirt without holes. Except for neck and arms. Peace!
 
The Axe-Fx already has fantastic (and very tweakable) power amp modeling so I've never felt the need for an external power amp. I can get all the power amp distortion I want, at any volume level, or, should I want less power amp distortion; either for headroom or to use a tone with more preamp distortion, I can easily do that too.

Even running a low wattage tube power amp is going to be way too loud for me when I'm playing at home in the evenings.

The Axe really gives me all the break-up, warmth and "real" tube feel dynamics I could ever want
 
Yes, the axe is truly organic in its power amp distortion. But remember, with great power comes great responsibility. The axe is powerful tone tool and will do ugly too. The learning curve can be high; if you dig you will find that the rabbit hole goes deep. Fortunately, the amps sound so good very little, if any, advanced parameter tweaking is necessary...but it is there! Also, never forget that volume is a part of the tone magic. While things don't have to be a 120db they do have to be loud enough to engage the amp/guitar unity factor, in my opinion. This can be a lower volume than you might think.

Another thing, FRFR is a different thing than a guitar amp. If you are going to compare the axe with an amp, then plug the axefx into quality solid state amp and similar cabinet. If your going for the sound of your favorite recorded guitar sound then frfr is your friend.

In my experience and opinion.

Having said this, I have ran the axe into the power amp section of my 50 watt marshall. So... I just use the power amps in the axe. Sounds as good and its easier. Plus, after power amp processing...yeh, just get a fractal and buy some new clothes.
 
Hi! As far as the rabbit hole of tweaking, I am the Rabbit Hole! So you boys are telling me with a straight face that you aren't missing tube pre or power -at least in any serious way that cannot be worked around?
Have you ever tried to set your power amp up in such a way that the amp is mostly clean until you really lay into it? I have seen that the volume knob rolled down on the guitar seems to work to lessen gain of the Axe Fx, but I have not seen this particular effect demonstrated. Also, do you guys have a vague idea of the % of Axe FX players who use FRFR vs % the typical guitar cab players...? Off the top of your heads of course!
 
Hi and welcome!


Ideally you would like to have no coloration from the power amp you use to amplify your axe fx. That means no breakup/distortion from the poweramp.
A good brand for neutral power amps is Matrix.

Then you can choose to use either traditional cabs or go the FRFR-route.
If you use a Matrix power amp and a traditional cab that you are familiar with then you get the same experience that you get by playing a traditional cab, which means piercing highs when putting your ear directly on axis in the speaker beam and a mellower sound when moving your ear further out to the sides. This way though you can not use the cab block and ir:s (impulse responses) in the axe fx which are a huge part of the sound shaping tools.

If using FRFR cabinets you get a more even sound when moving your ear on/off axis.
And you can use the cab block and ir:s. Remember that irs are produced by close micing a guitar speaker which means that the listening experience is a bit different when using frfr cabinets and irs versus traditional guitar cabinets.

If you already knew this then never mind, otherwise it is good to approach the Axe FX with an open mind and try to use your ears and learn as much as possible by reading this forum and the Axe FX II wiki.

Btw: If it sounds good it is good no matter what .
 
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In answer to one of your questions...yes on a couple of occasions I have plugged my Axe FX directly into my Fender Blues Jr ( 15 watt tube) and it sounded fine - In fact I enjoyed it more than just playing through the tube amp on its own. Though in general I usually use a pair of modestly priced Alto TS112a speakers for going the FR/FR route. Sometimes I combine both the TS112A speakers from output 1 and feed the (fender blues jr + an extension cab) from output 2 of the Axe.... makes for a variety of blends when jamming in a band situation ( cutting through the mix).
Evidently its widely thought to be unorthodox / sacreligious to use the AxeFX plus a tube amp without turning off amp sim .... what the heck, I do it anyway!
 
Ok, You guys are right in line with my research so far. Even where you differ! And that is fair. Here is a question kind of in relation to Jeppekristoffers post. Pardon me if it sounds rambling.

I can see miking (why does this word have a K in it?) a guitar cab with an Axe FX sitting on top of it for recording. But Jeppekristoffers an GuitarMike Are suggesting that FRFR Already sounds like a well recorded guitar. So would miking the FRFR actually degrade the signal? I ask because I honestly think NO mic, gives a perfect representation of the sound it's recording. And in fact that brings me full circle to the reason I posted this in the first place. I have had a couple of well known engineers tell me that that it can he hard to get a digital amp "sit" in the mix. I quote one nearly verbatim here. -"They can dominate or lay back, but they don't generally sit in the mix in the classic sense." I actually attenuated his statement. I remember it being considerably stronger and adamant.

Much of what I do is studio related. I'm just wondering how to record one of these things and have it sound as natural as possible yet have all of the advantages at my avail. I'm not looking for a replacement for tubes. Im REALLY looking for tube amp PLUS!
And so the idea for the low wattage power amp was born in my brain. I wonder if this would allow the Axe FX to sit easier. (Should I already be on a recording thread?) Thank you all!

Much of what I do is studio related.
 
On the power tube distortion thing; I am an old guy who has played and built marshall and fender styled amps for years; the old ones with out a master volume (and the jcm800 of course). I don't do amps with a circuit board. For me, guitar tone isn't about "distortion". Its about an amp being alive and organic. It includes distortion but its more than that. For me, the amp is as much of an instrument as the guitar is. It must be learned and "played". It responds to you with a certain character that is not always predictable; it has layers of tone. Not all tube amps do this - but the axefx is capable of this.

Concerning ir's and cabs: Although the gap is less than it was, there is still a difference between frfr and a real cab; be aware.

Tweaking: You can tweak the axe until it sounds terrible; be aware.

I have a hand tuned, point to point wired marshall, that is truly organic. It sounds great. I get the closest to this amp with the bogner sims believe it or not. But then, the marshall isn't exactly stock. I can actually get just as good of a sound with the axefx into a cab as I get with my marshall. I use the axefx to gig, not the marshall, and I am only concerned with tone and feel. Weight, loudness, and other things are not the determining factor; only tone and feel. In my opinion, the axe actually feels better than a real amp. I do understand what the advanced parameters are doing as they relate to a real tube amp so maybe that's why I am able to tweak the feel just exactly the way I like it; it doesn't take much!

I find the axe to be extremely authentic, articulate and, with the range of tools it offers, I can fine tune the tone and feel to be better than just a guitar amp.
 
Concerning the low wattage amp thing: Yes, I used to do small clubs with an old 15 watt supro and a sm57. You crank the old "one tone knob amp" to 10 and with the volume on the guitar, a cry baby and a tube screamer, you could play anything. Cathode bias el84's rock and the axefx has them at any volume.
 
Much of what I do is studio related. I'm just wondering how to record one of these things and have it sound as natural as possible yet have all of the advantages at my avail. I'm not looking for a replacement for tubes. Im REALLY looking for tube amp PLUS!

Welcome to the world of Fractal, Alphalfa! To address your main point of how the Axe-FX sits in a mix / how well it works in the studio:
I'm a producer. I primarily bought the Axe for the purpose of light international travel, but as I started using it more, I realized that I actually got better results with it in the studio too - going direct, no cabs - than with my tube amps. I agree with the statement of the engineers about modelers not sitting quite right in the mix (I've had the same experience with them), but this is not your grandma's modeler. The overtones, harmonics and the interaction of components within your internal amp circuit and your signal chain, are "the real thing".

Now, you probably won't fall in love with all 200+ amps in there, but that would be true in the real world too... I guarantee that you'll find at least 20 right off the bat, which will inspire the heck out of you. Then as you continue your Fractal journey, you'll keep discovering more and more useful applications for many more. That's been my experience.
 
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