Low End Weak Without Cab Sims On With Non-FRFR Guitar Cabs?

D

DJD100

Power User
Hi all, still evaluating my Ultra and I'm having a major problem...

...I can't get enough low end happening going into non-FRFR guitar cabs with the Cab Sims off?
I've tried multiple cabs (1 X 12 Jensen closed and 2 X 12 EVM closed, different SS Power Amps), and no luv (even with a PEQ doing +9db @ 250Hz shelving, bass up on the amp models, warmth, deep, thump all going etc)?

That 2 X 12 included vintage EVM's and a Piezo, and with the piezo on and the Cab Sims on it sounds good, but weak and thin without the Cab Sims with Piezo off?

Others have mentioned this in the archives, what's the story?

For reference I'm using a MTS Preamp with various Randall and Eggie modules and they sound great with their bass controls between 3 and 5 etc, and this is with classic rock/blues sounds with Strats and Les Pauls in standard tuning @ A = 440hz.

I've found that you can run the Cab Sims on with non-FRFR guitar cabs and use the "Air" parameter to help the top end sound better, but it should sound fine with the Cab Sims off with non-FRFR guitar cabs?

What am I missing?

Thanks for any help...
 
Yep, and I've tried all sorts of combination's of warmth, deep, thump, low freq cutoff etc, still nowhere near the low end of the real tube preamps (this at gig volume too, which for me is usually around 90db as I don't like the stage being too loud etc)?

Thanks...

markus said:
Are the power amp sims on? You probably want these on if you are using SS power amps...

Mark
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Something doesn't sound right. I'm running my Axe through a SLA-2 and into a 4x12 (cab sim off), and if anything, there are MORE bottom end than what I'm used to with tube heads. What kind of poweramp are you running?
 
I've tried three (all tests in Mono, Out1 L+R Summed)...

1) Big Carvin in FOH Rack?

2) Mosvalve 2 X 80W

3) The 50W SS in my custom made RM2

...thru two different cabs...

a) Vintage Bassman with 2 X vintage Alnico EVM12

b) Oversize Crate 1 X 12 with a Jensen Neo.

...and at all times I was referencing against my Custom RM2 with Tweed and Top Boost Modules and a vintage BF Bassman regarding the low end.

Good to hear as I really was really hoping to have the Axe do everything including stomp and amp models etc (to save weight etc), though at this point it's unusable with the Cab Sims off for me?

It's funny, some folks have complained about this while others have not?

Thanks...

mikeyen said:
Something doesn't sound right. I'm running my Axe through a SLA-2 and into a 4x12 (cab sim off), and if anything, there are MORE bottom end than what I'm used to with tube heads. What kind of poweramp are you running?
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Could there be a phase issue going on somewhere? If you haven't already, try bypassing everything in the patch but the amp. Also, make sure the EQ on output 1 is not cutting bass frequencies (you could also try boosting it, there).
 
I'll look further in this direction, thanks, though I have removed everything aside from the Amp model and the FX Loop which goes to the RM2, and A/B'd etc.

At one point I put a PEQ at the end of the chain and boosted 250Hz by 9db (shelving), still thin etc?

I am testing this in mono though, using only the left output1 to the power amp and guitar cabs, so perhaps something is out of phase with the summing?

Thanks...

kruzty said:
Could there be a phase issue going on somewhere? If you haven't already, try bypassing everything in the patch but the amp. Also, make sure the EQ on output 1 is not cutting bass frequencies (you could also try boosting it, there).
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Just want to make sure it's bass that your missing. When you say "thin", that sounds more like no mids/lower mids to me, not lack of bass. I thought my Axe FX sounded thin when I first hooked it up. I was running it through a tube power amp (which has excellent freq. response) and two 4x12 Marshall cabs. I fought with it for several hours trying to get a "full" sound with the cab sims disabled. The only way I was able to get close to the tone of my Marshall JVM was to boost the 650 Hz range about 8 db using the parametric (Q of .2 I believe). I still can't get a full sound without this parametric boost at the end up my signal chain, but it does sound close now, and has plenty of bass with "Thump" at 0.
 
Good to know, though in my case I seem to need help from about 300Hz down, at least to get closer to the MTS Modules and our custom tube power section (which is pretty flat as measured with an Audio Precision)?

I'm somewhat surprised that so much EQ is needed in the scenario?

At this point I've gotten closer but still prefer the MTS Modules, though I'll try again tomorrow LOL!

Thanks...

axel said:
Just want to make sure it's bass that your missing. When you say "thin", that sounds more like no mids/lower mids to me, not lack of bass. I thought my Axe FX sounded thin when I first hooked it up. I was running it through a tube power amp (which has excellent freq. response) and two 4x12 Marshall cabs. I fought with it for several hours trying to get a "full" sound with the cab sims disabled. The only way I was able to get close to the tone of my Marshall JVM was to boost the 650 Hz range about 8 db using the parametric (Q of .2 I believe). I still can't get a full sound without this parametric boost at the end up my signal chain, but it does sound close now, and has plenty of bass with "Thump" at 0.
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I am having a similar problem with my setup as well. Running the Axe-FX into the return of my uncles 2xEL84 Mesa F-30 with cab sims off sounded fine, a bit muffled but I would blame that on the Mesa. Now running through my 2xEL84 Lexicon Signature 284 through my much more robust Orange 2x12 sounds like an AM radio. No low end whatsoever, all high midrange which is very strange. I know EL84's are not known for their bass response, but running my guitar just straight into the input of the 284 sounds fine, very full low end whereas the Axe into the FX return sounds terrible. Time to try some new options I think, based on the sounds from other power amps ive played through I suspect the Lexicon is to blame.
 
I guess my solution is just a lot of post amp block EQ, like +8db or more sometimes. I'm having success using a shelf up at 250Hz, a dip around 400Hz, and a little top boost around 2.5K to 4K, maybe a db or so to get it to approximate the MTS module's "sparkle", again fairly low gain sounds here like the Maz, Top Boost and Fender models etc. The above is correcting for a oversize Crate 1X12 closed back with a Jensen Neo in it.

I really like the Maz model with Fender guitars (single coils).

It's getting better finally, thanks to everyone for their help!

WG6 said:
I am having a similar problem with my setup as well. Running the Axe-FX into the return of my uncles 2xEL84 Mesa F-30 with cab sims off sounded fine, a bit muffled but I would blame that on the Mesa. Now running through my 2xEL84 Lexicon Signature 284 through my much more robust Orange 2x12 sounds like an AM radio. No low end whatsoever, all high midrange which is very strange. I know EL84's are not known for their bass response, but running my guitar just straight into the input of the 284 sounds fine, very full low end whereas the Axe into the FX return sounds terrible. Time to try some new options I think, based on the sounds from other power amps ive played through I suspect the Lexicon is to blame.
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Hooked up the Axe to a friends QSC power amp, now we're back in business! Everything sounds as it should now, gotta look into grabbin a nice SS amp for a permanent solution.
 
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