Loving the cleans, but most of the gain structures sound quite the same : Any advice?

DemolitionColorScheme said:
Well, I've tried driving the amps with a TS type, which I would normally do, but this doesn't completely change the gain character, which brings me to the next quote ...

Unacceptable. I should be able to use the 5150 model. The 5150 has one of my favorite drive tones. I've also already tried fiddling around with the master and have tried several drives in front of several amps. Drives are meant to push the amp into further saturation/drive and the character should be able to come from the amp (simulation).
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I think it's fine if you just write it off as not what you want and try to fix it by buying other stuff, that might be one way to solve the problem.

But still: Your complaint is that the setup does not get you the sound through your cab with the 5150 sim and a TS drive, and you are not interested in looking at other options? But you do ask for advice, or are you just looking for other people to also complain?

I think that you have a bigger chance of finding what you want if you are more opened minded with the options in the Axe, and you'll get much more useful advice if you give some examples of the type of sound you are looking for. If you are infact looking to solve the problem with your setup as it is. If you start out by limiting your choices down to one amp and two drives then you are going to have a harder time getting there.

But you are of course welcome to disagree :)

Jens
 
Jens said:
I think it's fine if you just write it off as not what you want and try to fix it by buying other stuff, that might be one way to solve the problem.

But still: Your complaint is that the setup does not get you the sound through your cab with the 5150 sim and a TS drive, and you are not interested in looking at other options? But you do ask for advice, or are you just looking for other people to also complain?

I think that you have a bigger chance of finding what you want if you are more opened minded with the options in the Axe, and you'll get much more useful advice if you give some examples of the type of sound you are looking for. If you are infact looking to solve the problem with your setup as it is. If you start out by limiting your choices down to one amp and two drives then you are going to have a harder time getting there.

But you are of course welcome to disagree :)

Jens
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Jens, with all due respect, if you've read the opening post, I already stated that I tried other amp models and other pre-gain options. It comes down to the fact that, with an Axe-FX ULTRA, I should be able to use the 5150 to my liking. It's like saying to someone; "Oh, your Tele doesn't sound good? Try a Gibson LP."
I shouldn't HAVE to resort to other amp models and if I can't get one of my favorite drive sounds (which is the 5150), what's the point?

So, that starts the train of solutions, with one of them being going with a FR cab to match other cabinet models to it so the gain character changes, since, I do agree, the cab models make a HUGE difference.

What I'm looking for is this:
- http://forum.fractalaudio.com/ultra-std-discussion/48563-getting-classic-peavey-5150-low-mid-growl-smoothness.html
It's a thread I opened a while ago regarding the 5150 model.
 
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There is no point in obsessing over what amp model is selected. Does it really matter if it says 5150 or something else if it gets you the tone you want? Personally I'm against this whole "let's model every amp known to man" mentality because we could easily get the same tones with a handful of generic amp models and EQ tweaking.

I use a FRFR setup and I don't think any of the amp models I use are what I thought I would use when I got the unit. In any case, the FRFR with poweramp and cab modeling makes a big difference in how varied tones you get. I use the Atomic FR combo.
 
laxu said:
There is no point in obsessing over what amp model is selected. Does it really matter if it says 5150 or something else if it gets you the tone you want? Personally I'm against this whole "let's model every amp known to man" mentality because we could easily get the same tones with a handful of generic amp models and EQ tweaking.

I use a FRFR setup and I don't think any of the amp models I use are what I thought I would use when I got the unit. In any case, the FRFR with poweramp and cab modeling makes a big difference in how varied tones you get. I use the Atomic FR combo.
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I disagree. The models are modeled after the amp named in the model. I use the Blackface model because I like my cleans Fender-y and I want to use the 5150 model because I like the gain character of a 5150. For a lot of people, the Axe is supposed to be something that makes them want to exchange their existing amps because the Axe models them well.

Anyways, it's not about the 5150 per sé, like I said: all of the gain structures sound quite the same, so it doesn't matter which one I pick, it's not a 5150 tone and it's not a Plexi tone, etc. Now, we've established that that's probably due to my power amp and cab.
 
DemolitionColorScheme said:
Well, in my case, it would be a cab. It would still be mic'd up at a gig. What else should I see it as? Okay, it has the full frequency range, but I still think of it as a guitar cabinet, because that's what I'm using it for.
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First off you have a much wider area of coverage with an FR cab in some cases 90* but it's more like 45*. 2, you get the full benefit of the IR's which is the flavor of the speaker with the amp sim. Like you have pointed out you like your cleans Fender-y but you want the taste and growl of your 5150. It's pretty hard to do that with one guitar cab ie: a 112 Open back Fender flavor and a 412 loaded with Vintage 30's for the 5150. The benefits far out weigh traditional guitar cabs on stage.

At first after I went to the Axe I did the same thing, After using it for quite a few years now I can truly say it is much better to run an IR to FHO and have a monitor(s) at my feet.
 
Sixstring said:
At first after I went to the Axe I did the same thing, After using it for quite a few years now I can truly say it is much better to run an IR to FHO and have a monitor(s) at my feet.
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I agree ... however, I should've said this in the opening post, we play pretty big gigs, but, we also play plenty of gigs in small clubs and such where the PA is just good enough to handle vocals and some synths. Seeing as I'm running a stereo synth setup as well and we have a vocalist that works a mono synth as well, we pretty much run out of inputs on some of the crummy PA's. The only consistent way to have a guitar sound then is through a traditional cab setup. Even if I would replace that with a monitor, it would still probably not push enough to really cut through when 3 guitars aren't being mic'd.
 
DemolitionColorScheme said:
So, I love my Axe-FX ULTRA for cleans and I'm quickly done with editing them and am often satisfied with those quite quickly, however, all of the gain in the amp models sound really quite alike.

I'm using the ULTRA with a Peavey 50/50 Classic Stereo Power Amp with a Koch TS212 cab.
Is it the fact that I run it with a certain power amp and this cab? I'm constantly fiddling with the settings on models like the 5150 model, the JCM 800 / 900 models and the JTM45 model. I like them, but the gain structure is pretty similar and I'm not really 'feeling' that I've switched amps drastically. It kinda bugs me that I still haven't found 'my gain sound'. I try fiddling with the gain, the master, the sag (enabling the power amp modeling and disabling it to let the Peavey work on its own), the damp, depth, presence, the EQ, you name it.

Am I the only one that kinda feels this way?
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When I read the first sentence I immediately said to myself, "I'll bet he's using the same cab sim for everything." Then I read the next part and see that you're using the same physical guitar cab for everything. Real amps work this way too. I know because I still have and use them nearly as frequently as the Axe-FX (the Axe-FX is still my "A" rig though).

Take two tube amps capable of the same amount of gain. Dial them in to have the same level of gain and volume. Tweak the EQ to sound good to you on each independently. Run them through the same cab and start A/Bing between them. You'll find that they sound very, very similar. The speakers are incredibly powerful at shaping the sound.

Now switch between an Extasy Red channel running through a mix of V30s and T75s and a driven Plexi going through Greenbacks. Even dialed in to have the same amount of gain, they'll sound quite different.

FRFR is the way to go if you want to be able to create radically different sounds. Running all patches through one physical guitar cab is going to have a homogenizing effect. That isn't necessarily a bad thing though unless there are sounds that you want which you can't get with your cab. Some Axe-FX users use the same IR for every patch because they like how it keeps things similar. I like having very different sounds for different purposes, so I go FRFR and use the IR that gets me where I want to be for a given patch.

D
 
DemolitionColorScheme said:
IThe only consistent way to have a guitar sound then is through a traditional cab setup. Even if I would replace that with a monitor, it would still probably not push enough to really cut through when 3 guitars aren't being mic'd.
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Not true. There are plenty of active FRFR cabs that will get far louder than anything you would ever want or need. With the right cab, you would have no problem at all cutting through. You could easily get one powerful enough to drown everything else out if you wanted to.

D
 
dk_ace said:
Not true. There are plenty of active FRFR cabs that will get far louder than anything you would ever want or need. With the right cab, you would have no problem at all cutting through. You could easily get one powerful enough to drown everything else out if you wanted to.

D
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Yup... and to further add if you pair up with FR cabs and add a small 6-8 channel mixer you can do all your monitor mixing on stage in small and large clubs.
 
Hello demolition.
Go for the rcf nx 12 sma with confidence! I use One with my ultra and i am completely satisfied
 
You don't have to put them down as wedges. You could put them on a stand or a chair to project. That works very well in my experience (with a K10, but that does not matter too much I guess)

If you want to try the K10 just PM me I am not that far away and it'll be on the way to Alexander :)

Jens
 
DemolitionColorScheme said:
Way out of my price range, besides, these are monitor wedges and won't project the sound properly in a non-mic'd / non-DI application.
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Like Jens already said, you can put the monitor behind you, or put up standing (instead of laid down), raised on a stand, or even high up on a speaker pole. These kind of monitors actually have a much better spread than your typical guitar cab and risen up on a speaker pole nobody will have problems hearing you (yourself included).
Most of the time I use the monitor just for me and rest of the band and the audience gets the guitar through FOH, but I played gigs where I just did as described above.
 
I checked out your other thread where you posted the video of that 5150II. Honestly, this is exactly what I suffered through for the first couple months. I was too hung up on trying to get the amp sims to sound like their real world counter parts and sadly, it just doesn't happen. I was able to get real close with the JCM 800, 900 and the Rectos. I tried nailing the Powerball, VH4 and a few others and quickly realized its meant to be more of a Powerball-ish tone rather than the exact same tone. I mostly use the Ultra for recording rather than playing live (although I do use it through a Mesa 50/50 poweramp into a Marshall 1936 cab). That being said, you do realize there are other factors involved too. For example, the guy in that video is using a different cab and a bunch of other stuff in his rack. Plus the kind of guitar & pickups also matters too. I can get real close to recorded 5150 tones with Ultra. For example, some Soilwork stuff, Enslaved, In Flames and Gojira (I know they use 5150IIIs). Also, the EQ blocks & tonestack choices are of great consequence as well.

This weekend I was playing around with the JCM 800 model boosted with a TS808 and a LPF after the amp into Redwirez impulses on the Ultra and I got really close to the tone on my JVM 205H's oranged mode on the OD channel. It wasn't exactly the same thing but...a slightly better. At least that's what I'd want my JVM to sound like when recording.

The lower-mid sizzle you are talking about also comes from the kind of cab/speakers you are playing through.

Its probably worth mentioning that I just use a certain amp model as a reference/starting point to achieve the tone I have in my head.
 
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