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"lost notes" in chord voicings on Axe II

nikki-k

Experienced
Great posts going now... And thank you for your answers.

With regard to the Triaxis and translation; this is based upon my personal use, so others' usage may/will vary, of course. Translating the Triaxis to ANY physical head will require (significant) changes; use of the Dynamic Voice section complicates things, as it is not a directly translatable function. IOW, it is not a simple application of a preset GEQ from any particular Mesa head. Further, the Gain "pre-stage" provides an.. eclectic?.. bit of control that is also not (necessarily) directly translatable; except under certain conditions. For instance, if one were to translate a Lead 1 Red (Dual Rec; "color" depends upon power amp, and if a 2:Ninety is used, "Modern" state might solely dictate this), a Gain setting of "7.0" *replicates* the stock input gain of the Dual Rec; varying this equals.. sort of.. an alteration to this aspect of the Dual Rec. AFAIK, Petrucci did not stray from this (his recorded "Rhy 3" patches, for instance).

With that Lead mode, btw, it is a different circuit board (in the Triaxis) being utilized. I would suppose this is due to the tonestack variance, with that being the only one with a post-preamp location; the Mark series runs pre-preamp. Further, the Triaxis is notorious.. probably more accurately, infamous.. for the extreme interactivity and interdependence of each and every control (save the Lead 1 and Lead 2 drives with one another, or when absent), more so than with the emulated heads/amps. Since this is an exaggeration of Mark (and Rec) series amps, and since the Triaxis is not modeled (currently) in the Axe, translational accuracy will be a task :D. If Petrucci-esque is what one is after, then I would first select an era/album/tour, and consider the equipment used. Also of extreme importance is realizing that recorded tone is FAR different from actual "playing the amp in the same room" tone.

I could go on about the Triaxis; it is a pet favorite of mine, and could I afford one plus the Axe II, I most certainly would. I have tried different versions, played with far too many tube combinations.. even considered a few of the mods that are out there. It is unique IMO, and I found it quite difficult/impossible (for me) to replicate some tones accurately enough with the amps it emulates, or with a Quad (or Studio; never got to try a Rec Pre). For older Petrucci-esque tight, Rec rhythm, I would start with what Adam has put out there (settings). Although Petrucci used his 2:Ninety with Deep and Modern engaged for his Lead 1 Red (Rec) patch, I would begin with the Orange mode Dual Rec in the Axe as a starting point. All else, USA Lead might be best.

Just my 3 cents, and in no way meant as a "put down" or other negative reflection upon your, or others', postings. Just my opinion :D
 

symphx

Fractal Fanatic
It would be interesting if ANYONE could post a high gain sound that sounds good alone that would do what the OP is requesting, not cover up the low a when open playing the low b. He stipulates this is very achievable on many tube amps and triaxis. It is clear on his albums (though clips so low volume cant tell).

If this isnt somewhat easily achievable with the axe, then this would be considered a MAJOR shortcoming. Again I am going on the assumption that this is achievable with many other amps that axe fx is supposed to model.
 

yek

Moderator
Moderator
It would be interesting if ANYONE could post a high gain sound that sounds good alone that would do what the OP is requesting, not cover up the low a when open playing the low b. He stipulates this is very achievable on many tube amps and triaxis. It is clear on his albums (though clips so low volume cant tell).

If this isnt somewhat easily achievable with the axe, then this would be considered a MAJOR shortcoming. Again I am going on the assumption that this is achievable with many other amps that axe fx is supposed to model.
Eh, what's your point? There are loads of examples of great sounding downtuned hi-gain presets.
 

Bumbleish

Inspired
Symph..are you joking? Take any gain-y amp and don't cut out the frequencies of the a & d string and you have it. Hell..you don't need EQ or PEQ. Just pick a high gain amp and cab thats it.

I think a lot of this has to do with trying to copy a setting of somebody you have heard uses it without knowing anything about how EQ and frequencies on the gtr work.
 

nvandyk

Member
Symph..are you joking? Take any gain-y amp and don't cut out the frequencies of the a & d string and you have it. Hell..you don't need EQ or PEQ. Just pick a high gain amp and cab thats it.

I think a lot of this has to do with trying to copy a setting of somebody you have heard uses it without knowing anything about how EQ and frequencies on the gtr work.
Ya know, I sat there and let the guy from Des Moines insult me but I'm not gonna sit here again.

You may not have meant this as arrogantly and rudely as it came across but you'll get farther in life if you mind your manners, particularly if you don't know who you're insulting.

I don't wear it on my sleeve but far from "knowing nothing about EQ and how frequencies on the gtr works" I'm a signed artist, I've played dozens if not hundreds of amps, spent many days listening to JP sit in a room and on stage playing through unmic'ed cabs, and I know JUST A LITTLE about how EQ and frequencies on the guitar work. This is what I mean when I say it's offensive to be treated like an imbecile.

This is not about "not knowing anything about guitar frequencies or how EQ works."

This is about the complexity of the Axe. Don't pretend it's plug-and-play. It's flexible, it's powerful, that's great. Within that flexibility and power it will hopefully get me and many others where we need to go. But as one of the other endorsees told me (unlike Jeff, I won't mention him by name) "the unit is for real, but it will take days and days of tweaking to get something you want to use, so brace yourself for that."

I thought I had done so -- clearly I didn't brace myself for the rudeness of some in this community.

Did you read Sean's (a very helpful guy in this thread, by the way) solution to get a bit more clarity? I absolutely appreciate his efforts and have thanked him off-board. But leaving aside the resulting signal (which is a matter of taste) do you think it is REMOTELY reasonable -- to get clarity -- to have to go three pages deep into a setting and take some incredibly esoteric parameters to get the job done? Do you think anybody in their right mind walks into a guitar center with any tone that has gain and can't find a way, through four knobs on the front, to get something that has both gain and notes you can hear? And anybody who isn't capable of opening the thing up and doing a mod on it in the store doesn't know anything about guitar frequencies or EQ? Do you walk into guitar center and say "before I can try out this guitar, I need you to set up a parametric EQ pedal before the amp to take out all the low end otherwise I won't be able to hear anything in a chord"?

Get real.

The real answer to this problem is (1) dials on the Axe don't have one-to-one correspondance to real life, (2) the Recto Red is a poor model to replicate Lead 2 Red on a Triaxis, go with USA Lead 2 instead, (3) experiment with different cabs and cut lows on them, and (4) on the Axe you need to also cut low signals before the amp block or it will get muddy fast.

That's polite, to the point, not insulting, and hopefully accurate.

Dammit, where's the eyeroll emoticon!!! :)
 
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chris

Legend!
You are kinda defensive :)

The axe is as complex as you make it. Just amp and cab and basic changes and I can get a clear sound. Never used a peq before the amp ever.

I don't wear it on my sleeve but far from "knowing nothing about EQ and how frequencies on the gtr works" I'm a signed artist, I've played dozens if not hundreds of amps, spent many days listening to JP sit in a room and on stage playing through unmic'ed cabs, and I know JUST A LITTLE about how EQ and frequencies on the guitar work. This is what I mean when I say it's offensive to be treated like an imbecile.
That's great experience but that doesn't immediately translate to knowledge. I'm sure you do know a lot, but i've never seen petrucci put a d112 on his cabs before. With all your eq knowledge, you shouldn't have a problem finding clarity with the open strings droning.

Maybe you should wear it on your sleeve and tell us exactly Who you are and what you know if you are looking for immediate respect here. But to me this forum isn't about ego or saving face. It's about sharing, learning, teaching and being vulnerable to share what you don't know so others can help.

A few other recording artists, Grammy winners etc post here and I've never felt a "don't treat me like an imbecile" tone from them.

The real answer to this problem is (1) dials on the Axe don't have one-to-one correspondance to real life, (2) the Recto Red is a poor model to replicate Lead 2 Red on a Triaxis, go with USA Lead 2 instead, (3) experiment with different cabs and cut lows on them, and (4) on the Axe you need to also cut low signals before the amp block or it will get muddy fast.
Yes blame the gear, it's definitely that. I say sell the axe fx and use an amp. You are a signed artist and should be using the real deal.
 
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Bumbleish

Inspired
Must say that has nothing to do with knowing how guitar frequencies or how EQ works. Ive toured the world many times over playing with a well known band. I have a bachelors from Berklee in performance & Jazz Comp., a masters from New England Conservatory in Jazz Performance, and a Doctorate from NEC as well in ethnomusicology. Does that mean I know how freq works on gtr....nope!

(I though this was obvious but maybe it wasn't. I was stating the above as not I'm better than you look at my qualifications pissing match kinda thing...just meant you can be pro and have a ton of experience and not know jack shit about how the guitar works and/or acoustics)

You know what does...many years of studying it with some MP&E classes & private lessons with the Mr Golden Ears Dave Moulton.

YES, i can say that you don't what your doing when you cut nearly every frequency on the a & d string and ask why its hiding.
 
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symphx

Fractal Fanatic
Symph..are you joking? Take any gain-y amp and don't cut out the frequencies of the a & d string and you have it. Hell..you don't need EQ or PEQ. Just pick a high gain amp and cab thats it.

I think a lot of this has to do with trying to copy a setting of somebody you have heard uses it without knowing anything about how EQ and frequencies on the gtr work.
well those that have replied have missed th epoint entirely. I too have loads of great high gain patches, but they dont seem to do what the OP is asking, so instead of being repulsively arrogant and obnoxious post what he is asking--not chords, not palm muting, he even gave you the sheet music, go ahead replicate it with the clarity he seeks, open b notes on a, make the notes on a audible without sounding like a pile of tinny dog sh*t. dont reply without a sample.

If its soooooooo easy and doesnt need peq, filters, special resonance settings, just do it. I cant seem to make it non muddy on most of my high gain patches I like in all other ways, and I rarely do what the OP is doing, and I dont know that it is doable other than he says it is. But dont flame me for asking for someone to do what is soooooooo eaaaaaaaaaaaasy.

So is my point unclear? If it is, you havent read the request of the OP, calm down.
 

nvandyk

Member
Thanks, Nikki-K...some great stuff in here! This has become a very interesting thread apart from a couple of zero-value grenade lobbers. :)

With regard to the Triaxis and translation; this is based upon my personal use, so others' usage may/will vary, of course. Translating the Triaxis to ANY physical head will require (significant) changes; use of the Dynamic Voice section complicates things, as it is not a directly translatable function. IOW, it is not a simple application of a preset GEQ from any particular Mesa head.
That's very true. I tried to solve this with a PEQ block after the amp in the original patch. Now that I am abandoning efforts to replicate the Triaxis in favor of the Mark V, that aspect is no longer necessary but there's still the issue of using a PEQ after the power amp instead of between pre and power stages. That will take some further tweaking.

Further, the Gain "pre-stage" provides an.. eclectic?.. bit of control that is also not (necessarily) directly translatable
Also true. I kinda wished this away and tried to adjust gain to taste to get there, but between that and dynamic voice, it's probably quite difficult to get it accurately.

With that Lead mode, btw, it is a different circuit board (in the Triaxis) being utilized.
I thought Lead 2 Red was the red channel on the Mark III, no?

If Petrucci-esque is what one is after, then I would first select an era/album/tour, and consider the equipment used. Also of extreme importance is realizing that recorded tone is FAR different from actual "playing the amp in the same room" tone.
Of course. That said, I can perfectly replicate his tone from I&W and Awake. Use the same equipment, get the same tone.

By the way, in recording my last CD the producer debunked a bit of that. He said that after years of putting mics off axis, using multiple mics, getting the room in there, etc. he found that one mic, placed as close as possible to the grill, about 2 inches off center of the speaker, replicates almost the exact same sound as "being in the room" (minus the room itself, of course). So it's not as far different going in. Obviously as has been discussed, other instruments, EQ in the mic, multitracking and mastering all have a big impact.

I could go on about the Triaxis; it is a pet favorite of mine, and could I afford one plus the Axe II, I most certainly would.
I won't be getting rid of mine...yet anyhow! :)

I have tried different versions, played with far too many tube combinations.. even considered a few of the mods that are out there. It is unique IMO, and I found it quite difficult/impossible (for me) to replicate some tones accurately enough with the amps it emulates, or with a Quad (or Studio; never got to try a Rec Pre). For older Petrucci-esque tight, Rec rhythm, I would start with what Adam has put out there (settings). Although Petrucci used his 2:Ninety with Deep and Modern engaged for his Lead 1 Red (Rec) patch, I would begin with the Orange mode Dual Rec in the Axe as a starting point. All else, USA Lead might be best.[/quote]

The USA Lead 2, insofar as it replicates the Mark V, is a good starting place, I think. The interaction of the EQ will take some tweaking but hopefully it will get there. If I get something workable with this, I may then go back and experiment further with the Recto Orange.

Just my 3 cents, and in no way meant as a "put down" or other negative reflection upon your, or others', postings. Just my opinion :D
Not a put down in the least -- HIGHLY informative and constructive and helpful. Thank you!
 

nvandyk

Member
Must say that has nothing to do with knowing how guitar frequencies or how EQ works. Ive toured the world many times over playing with a well known band. I have a bachelors from Berklee in performance & Jazz Comp., a masters from New England Conservatory in Jazz Performance, and a Doctorate from NEC as well in ethnomusicology. Does that mean I know how freq works on gtr....nope!

You know what does...many years of studying it with some MP&E classes & private lessons with the master Dave Moulton.

YES, i can say that you don't what your doing when you cut nearly every frequency on the a a & d string and ask why its hiding.
Of course ou can say whatever you like. It just makes you a jerk. If the only people capable of getting a good tone have many years of private lessons with Dave Moulton, then it's an issue.

Whatever. We're done here. Hope you are adding this much value elsewhere in your life.
 

Bumbleish

Inspired
The thing is symphx, unless your paying me I am not going to record samples for you or the OP.
Just pick preset #32 (Cameron High) and you'll have your high gain without killing the A & D strings.
 

Bumbleish

Inspired
I never said it did....just said it meant you most likely had no idea that you were killing all the freq on the A & D strings by what you were doing. Everyone has told you that...but apparently you think your special somehow & that possible can't be true.
"I'm a signed artist, I've played dozens if not hundreds of amps, spent many days listening to JP sit in a room and on stage playing through unmic'ed cabs, and I know JUST A LITTLE about how EQ and frequencies on the guitar work.
 
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nvandyk

Member
You are kinda defensive :)

The axe is as complex as you make it. Just amp and cab and basic changes and I can get a clear sound. Never used a peq before the amp ever.
Would love your help, then. All I've got is an amp and cap, and now the PEQ in front because many people here suggested it.

That's great experience but that doesn't immediately translate to knowledge. I'm sure you do know a lot, but i've never seen petrucci put a d112 on his cabs before.
LOL! :)

Again, people seem to gloss over the point that it happened independentlly of the D112 but acknowledgeing that doesn't suit your desire to insult.

With all your eq knowledge, you shouldn't have a problem finding clarity with the open strings droning.
With all the EQ knowledge of this board, all of whom know much more than me, you'd think there'd be a very simple solution. I'm still waiting for it.

Maybe you should wear it on your sleeve and tell us exactly Who you are and what you know if you are looking for immediate respect here.
I'm looking for common courtesy. It's not about ego, or insecurity. You don't see me listing my gear in my signature. This is about common courtesy. Often missing from net communication. You'd think on a support forum people would be a little less insulting but whatever.

It's about sharing, learning, teaching and being vulnerable to share what you don't know so others can help.
Precisely. Who is being vulnerable in this except me? And how are comments like "you know nothing about EQ, should just solve itself, piss off" either sharing, teaching, or helping?

A few other recording artists, Grammy winners etc post here and I've never felt a "don't treat me like an imbecile" tone from them.
Try treating them like an imbecile multiple times and see how that goes for you.

Yes blame the gear, it's definitely that. I say sell the axe fx and use an amp. You are a signed artist and should be using the real deal.
I chose my words VERY carefully so as NOT to insult the gear. You should re-read. I'll help you along:

1. Dials on the axe don't have one-to-one correspondence to real life. This is not an insult. This is a quote from Cliff, who then explained why it was the case. I went into detail in a previous post thanking him for the explanation. It only matters because one should be aware of the difference. It's not a condemnation of the gear whatsoever.

2. The Rector Red is a poor model to replicate Lead 2 Red on a Triaxis, go with USA Lead 2 instead. How is this an insult? Would it have been more or less of an insult if I'd said that a Fender Tweed was a poor model?

3. Experiment with different cabs and cut lows on them. Real insult there. JFC people.

4. On the Axe you need to also cut low signals before the amp block or if will get muddy fast. On these amp models, I should have said, but I thought that was obvious and it's something 10 people in this thread have said but I'm insulting the unit?

Wow.
 

Bumbleish

Inspired
Of course ou can say whatever you like. It just makes you a jerk. If the only people capable of getting a good tone have many years of private lessons with Dave Moulton, then it's an issue.

Whatever. We're done here. Hope you are adding this much value elsewhere in your life.
Never said you had to study MP&E to have great tone...but it would help in not making some mistakes.

I know this isn't the exact sound you are going after but we can fine tune it some after. Try preset #32..the cameron high one. Do you still have the masked A & D strings?
 
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AkakorMo

Inspired
Whoa...settle down guys! First off, I don't care who has a degree in what or who has played with JP or anyone else for that matter. This guy has a problem and he has a right to ask. I haven't really seen him say anything bad towards the gear but he is having problems getting his sound (haven't we all been there with the axe??). OP, I played your tab on my presets and on the #32 "Cameron high" as suggested by another poster. Sorry to say it but I have not experienced the same thing as you. My notes sound as muffled as they do with distortion on a tube amp as well. I actually think they cut through better than with tube amps (Mark V for example). If you are trying to make the triaxis try using the USA Lead but change the tonestack to suit after you are happy with amp and cab choices. Hope you figure it out.

Remember guys we all bought this crazy black box with some pretty high hopes and I bet someone (Mark Day maybe...) helped you figure out a tone or a new trick. Don't forget that folks!
 

chris

Legend!
in testing and using riff 1, the clarity of the a string is the same between my diezel vh4s and my axe-fx using the diezel amp.

with both i find it better to mute the open d string when playing the a string notes. i know the tab is written as d string open, but in performance, are you muting the d string when you do the a string hammers? that instantly makes the notes clearer using both the amp and the axe.

i have a little more time to experiment. i'm just having the same difficulty with both amps. i know with the axe, though, i have many options for fixing it where as with the amp i only have 6 or so knobs.
 

Sacha

Inspired
Whoa...settle down guys! First off, I don't care who has a degree in what or who has played with JP or anyone else for that matter. This guy has a problem and he has a right to ask. I haven't really seen him say anything bad towards the gear but he is having problems getting his sound (haven't we all been there with the axe??). OP, I played your tab on my presets and on the #32 "Cameron high" as suggested by another poster. Sorry to say it but I have not experienced the same thing as you. My notes sound as muffled as they do with distortion on a tube amp as well. I actually think they cut through better than with tube amps (Mark V for example). If you are trying to make the triaxis try using the USA Lead but change the tonestack to suit after you are happy with amp and cab choices. Hope you figure it out.

Remember guys we all bought this crazy black box with some pretty high hopes and I bet someone (Mark Day maybe...) helped you figure out a tone or a new trick. Don't forget that folks!
+1 - AND his band kicks ass!

You'll get there don't stress too much, it's taken me a couple months to find my tones in the Axe-II after owning the Ultra for a few years. Not because it was hard to dial in a good tone, it wasn't, just in a complex box with that many different parameters it takes a while to explore and figure out what options work for you. My tones are probably a different flavour than yours and nothing special really, but if you want me to send you some to check out or anything let me know.
 

nvandyk

Member
Whoa...settle down guys! First off, I don't care who has a degree in what or who has played with JP or anyone else for that matter. This guy has a problem and he has a right to ask. I haven't really seen him say anything bad towards the gear but he is having problems getting his sound (haven't we all been there with the axe??). OP, I played your tab on my presets and on the #32 "Cameron high" as suggested by another poster. Sorry to say it but I have not experienced the same thing as you. My notes sound as muffled as they do with distortion on a tube amp as well. I actually think they cut through better than with tube amps (Mark V for example). If you are trying to make the triaxis try using the USA Lead but change the tonestack to suit after you are happy with amp and cab choices. Hope you figure it out.

Remember guys we all bought this crazy black box with some pretty high hopes and I bet someone (Mark Day maybe...) helped you figure out a tone or a new trick. Don't forget that folks!
THANK YOU.

I, too, will experiment with preset #32. If it gives gain and clarity, that's good...whether or not I like preset #32, as Arnold said in Predator, "if it bleeds, we can kill it." :)
 

nvandyk

Member
in testing and using riff 1, the clarity of the a string is the same between my diezel vh4s and my axe-fx using the diezel amp.

with both i find it better to mute the open d string when playing the a string notes. i know the tab is written as d string open, but in performance, are you muting the d string when you do the a string hammers? that instantly makes the notes clearer using both the amp and the axe.
Thank you very much for the help and for taking the time to give it a whirl.

I do, in fact, palm mute the D string. I am a little sloppy in my transcription of the tab. :) That second one was even worse...takes forever in Finale! I have a real appreciation for people that do that for a living.

i have a little more time to experiment. i'm just having the same difficulty with both amps. i know with the axe, though, i have many options for fixing it where as with the amp i only have 6 or so knobs.
This, too, is very helpful to know.

I can't remember if I mentioned this but one was tracked using a Peavey 5150 and a Boogie, and the other song was tracked with a Peavey XXX. Scratch tracks were done with a crummy ol POD and so compositionally, if it wasn't possible to get the clarity on the POD, I'd have thrown the part out. So the part works, both on a far less powerful (see, I'm complimenting! :) ) modeler and two out of three amps that are fine but not god's gift to anything.

I'm quite sure the Axe is capable of doing this as well. It's just requiring a lot of tweaking, which I was expecting...though there've been a few twists and turns along the way.
 
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