Looper: Unity Gain?

Morphosis

Morphosis

Official G66 Support
What did i have to consider, if i want unity gain out of the looper? I want it to put into the first slot of my signal chain to use it for sound-tweaking, without the need of playing guitar at the same time. So, the recorded loop should be identical loud as the input signal of the guitar.

- Mix = 100% (Wet loop signal)
- Output = 0db? / +3db? / +6db?

I would say: Mix 100% and Output = 0db, but it seems the direct signal is a bit louder ... Anyone?

Thanks
markus
 
Well, i wonder the same...
I use the looper in a parallel path but just in the last column before output.
All my path is stereo but if i set the looper mix to 100% and level to 0db it is louder than the direct signal...
I've already alerted Adam on this few months ago but he said my preset construction should be faulty...
 
Some firmwares ago Cliff said something about setting the looper volume to +6db. Don't know if this still stands.....
 
Well, for now if i need the looper to produce exactly the sound it had on its inputs i tend to set it to -3db...
 
I hypothesize that the perceived volume difference is due the difference in what we think we hear when we are playing the guitar vs not playing the guitar.

The code shows (and my testing shows) that if you set it to 100% mix then what goes on the loop is identical to what comes off of it. I.e. if a sample with a value of 0.5 gets recorded onto the looper then that sample still has a value of 0.5 when you play it back.

If you have some presets or testing that demonstrates otherwise please let me know and I will take a look.
 
there was a similar topic some time ago which showed that a setting of 0dB would not be equal. gotta do some searching...

edit:
actually I had it written down. seems like +6dB was what most people preferred when the Looper is first in line. gotta test this later...
 
I got it. Test it with Synth-Block: If Looper is in Stereo Mode and you set Mix to 100% (wet looper signal) and Output Level of the Looper to default 0db, than you`ll get unity gain and do not have to worry about panning issues.

If the Looper is in MONO mode and the Input signal is only LEFT (like in the I/O Input 1 Mode: LEFT Only), you have to add 6db in the Loopers Output to get unity gain again. Note: this is only, when Input is only at ONE channel (left OR right).

I recommend to use Looper in Stereo Mode | Mix 100% | Output= 0db, than you`ll be fine with guaranteed unity gain for sound tweaking ... In this case it doesen`t matter, if the input is stereo or mono -> In this case the input level is always the Loopers output level
 
Morphosis said:
I got it. Test it with Synth-Block: If Looper is in Stereo Mode and you set Mix to 100% (wet looper signal) and Output Level of the Looper to default 0db, than you`ll get unity gain and do not have to worry about panning issues.

If the Looper is in MONO mode and the Input signal is only LEFT (like in the I/O Input 1 Mode: LEFT Only), you have to add 6db in the Loopers Output to get unity gain again. Note: this is only, when Input is only at ONE channel (left OR right).

I recommend to use Looper in Stereo Mode | Mix 100% | Output= 0db, than you`ll be fine with guaranteed unity gain for sound tweaking ... In this case it doesen`t matter, if the input is stereo or mono -> In this case the input level is always the Loopers output level
Click to expand...
that's it.
for the purpose of the OP, I'd probably set it to Mono. I usually set my Amps' input to Left only anyway (guitars are not stereo) and in this case setting the Looper to Mono plus a 6dB boost makes total sense.
 
Morphosis said:
I got it. Test it with Synth-Block: If Looper is in Stereo Mode and you set Mix to 100% (wet looper signal) and Output Level of the Looper to default 0db, than you`ll get unity gain and do not have to worry about panning issues.

If the Looper is in MONO mode and the Input signal is only LEFT (like in the I/O Input 1 Mode: LEFT Only), you have to add 6db in the Loopers Output to get unity gain again. Note: this is only, when Input is only at ONE channel (left OR right).

I recommend to use Looper in Stereo Mode | Mix 100% | Output= 0db, than you`ll be fine with guaranteed unity gain for sound tweaking ... In this case it doesen`t matter, if the input is stereo or mono -> In this case the input level is always the Loopers output level
Click to expand...
That makes sense when looper is on the input side.
 
Like I said in this thread, Cliff had said to set the looper to +6db a few firmwares ago.......I guess it still applies
 
Hi Al,
I tried your preset and and used TrueRTA to measure the average dB SPL. The results are nearly identical. There's always some margin of error because it's impossible to play the same thing exactly twice. But the Looper is definitely not adding any gain.

-Adam
 
willowdale said:
Like I said in this thread, Cliff had said to set the looper to +6db a few firmwares ago.......I guess it still applies
Click to expand...

It all depends upon what mix is set to. If mix is set to something less than 100% then you would want to turn up level to compensate.
 
AdamCook said:
Hi Al,
I tried your preset and and used TrueRTA to measure the average dB SPL. The results are nearly identical. There's always some margin of error because it's impossible to play the same thing exactly twice. But the Looper is definitely not adding any gain.

-Adam
Click to expand...
Thanks Adam !
There 's definitely something going wrong there then ! I really hear the loop louder... Could something in the AxeFX settings produce this ?
 
Does the looper intentionally use a different mix law from other effects? In series at 50% mix it has to be set to +3 dB to match the original dry level. With anything else (except for delay now with the new mix law) it would have to be +6 dB.

Morphosis said:
If the Looper is in MONO mode and the Input signal is only LEFT (like in the I/O Input 1 Mode: LEFT Only), you have to add 6db in the Loopers Output to get unity gain again. Note: this is only, when Input is only at ONE channel (left OR right).
Click to expand...

I think you might be confusing panning left in the grid with what left only input mode actually does. If you have a looper at 100% mix first in the chain and input 1 mode = left only, looper level at 0 dB will play back the loop at the original level.
 
So I just ran an experiment to test what the looper actually does...

Guitar -> Inst input

Chain 1: Bone dry signal from input to output
Chain 2: Looper set to 100% mix, 0dB level

I hit record in the looper, then hit record in Reaper and played a short phrase (recording Chain 1). Then I hit play on the looper, and after the phrase was ended, I hit stop in Reaper (recording Chain 2).
Using tab to transient, I chopped up the recorded track into 2 parts: Chain 1, Chain 2.

In theory, Chain 1 and 2 should be identical. I put Chain 2 on a separate track, lined up the 2 clips, and inverted the phase on Chain 2.

If Chain 1 and 2 were identical, they should pretty much cancel each other out perfectly. The peak signal of both clips played simultaneous was -79.1 dB... so I'd say it's a pretty good match!
 
Morphosis said:
I got it. Test it with Synth-Block: If Looper is in Stereo Mode and you set Mix to 100% (wet looper signal) and Output Level of the Looper to default 0db, than you`ll get unity gain and do not have to worry about panning issues.

If the Looper is in MONO mode and the Input signal is only LEFT (like in the I/O Input 1 Mode: LEFT Only), you have to add 6db in the Loopers Output to get unity gain again. Note: this is only, when Input is only at ONE channel (left OR right).

I recommend to use Looper in Stereo Mode | Mix 100% | Output= 0db, than you`ll be fine with guaranteed unity gain for sound tweaking ... In this case it doesen`t matter, if the input is stereo or mono -> In this case the input level is always the Loopers output level
Click to expand...

... oh guys, what did i have done? .... really: After my question here in the forum i checked the volume behaviour in dependency of Stereo or Mono signal inputs, like i wrote above ... i test it with testsignals and watch my db level on the RME Soundcard in the DAW. It is exactly, like i wrote above ... it depends on the input signal and the Mono/Stereo Mode in the Looper Block ...

Never thought, that this will be that discussion now ;)
 
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