LOOPER block dream


Last night I had a dream only to awake from it in a cold sweat. In my dream my Axe looper block had 4 different lines that synced to each other and all lines could be different lengths. I had a similar dream where there were two looper blocks that could be placed anywhere in the chain. Any other like minded dreamers?
It exactly the same thing, but check out the iOS looper app “loopy”, it’s $3.99 and can have up to 12 synchronized loops, of different lengths, with tap tempo and Ableton link syncing, plus midi and Bluetooth control. You can store and import loops as well.

It’s basically everything people like in a looper and then some, for next to nothing (assuming you’ve already got an iOS device at least)
I'm pretty satisfied with our Looper, and feel privileged to have a looper wish implemented.

CPU usage is probably a factor, and CPU usage probably requires long term planning. I wouldn't want to use too much of it in the Looper function.
It exactly the same thing, but check out the iOS looper app “loopy”, it’s $3.99 and can have up to 12 synchronized loops, of different lengths, with tap tempo and Ableton link syncing, plus midi and Bluetooth control. You can store and import loops as well.

It’s basically everything people like in a looper and then some, for next to nothing (assuming you’ve already got an iOS device at least)
To bad that little app couldn’t be used to interface with the AXE. Im seriously considering buying another Rang3.
There is an epic thread at TGP about looping: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...s-an-open-letter-to-fx-manufacturers.1539563/

It's not a typical TGP thread :) - while it certainly wanders at times, there are many great points discussed along the way. I've enjoyed reading it - over the course of four years!

I have no doubt @FractalAudio could build what the OP (David Torn) wants. It's really a question of whether he wants to, or whether it's even worthwhile. (A couple posts point out that guitarists seem to want very different feature sets from loopers; perhaps explaining why so many different devices are available.)

Enjoy, if you take the plunge.


since i posted this thread, as have my own opinions & perceptions.

since there are still valuable opinions & infos being actively posted here, the thread lives.
BUT!, PLEASE don’t respond to my OP as if it were posted currently.

thanks mucho,

i'm tired of ruining everyone's nice looping-threads, here, even if it occurs accidentally;
i've done it too many times, esp. when folks talk about "the cutting edge" and "being ahead of the curve" of the technology,
w/o real knowledge or much experience of what looping actually has to offer --- what it & the looping-gear, itself, already did offer --- beyond the "look ma, i'm a one-man/woman song-production-factory-in-realtime"-paradigm which so many seem to believe is the only way to "loop".
so, here's my open letter:

dear folks who make looping-devices, esp. those which are marketed to guitarists:
your products are decades behind the times; decades.

Lexicon PCM42 with Hall-mods
Electrix Repeater
Oberheim Echoplex Digital Pro w/Aurisis LOOP-IV software
Elektron Octatrak
Looperlative LP1
TC 2290
Paradis Delay
MXR 2-second delay
EH 16-sec delay
DigiTech pds8000
etc etc etc

all of the above offer features, functionalities & possible sounds which are well beyond the possibilities your own products offer.
at least one of those irreplaceable devices dates back to the late 1970's; personally, i own & regularly use a few of the above.
some, daily.

here, i will not go into many comparisons with software (ie, non-hardware) development.

so: your looping devices are decades behind your own curve.
which isn't a big deal (at all) on one level:
music is music, and will always make its own way, based on musicians' need to make it.

however..... brilliant creative possibilities from within already existing technologies have been actively abandoned, in favor of what seems to be simple pandering to a marketplace comprised of folks who simply don't remember the great looping-devices already built before yours, and of folks who have zero awareness that such things ever existed at all.

maybe you have decided, somehow --- all of you --- that "if the punters don't know it's there and don't ask for it, let's not build it!", so you don't.
maybe, you simply don't care, which i might understand more..... if the market for advancing the possibilities & market for looping weren't ripe, RIGHT NOW:
because people buy the little, dead-end loopers.

no, wait..... don't get me wrong!
i get it.
to me, they're fun & cool & occasionally useful; but, creatively-speaking?
in most cases, there's a pretty quick creative dead-end built-into them gadgets;
they are, somehow, (almost-, kinda-) playback devices.

it is disturbing to me, (at least) that folks' visions of looping have narrowed & moved so far backwards, and over such a short period of time.

most guitarists don't know what's currently happening (with software looping), what has happened in hardware looping, and they seem broadly unaware of hardware looping's history, musically creative possibilities & precedents-set using that powerful gear which had already been released by previous designers & manufacturers.

on top of that?
not one of the current guitar-orientated major hardware-FX manufacturers has bothered to address any of that with the fresh design and release of a new looping product actually worthy of being called "contemporary".
not one.

now that there's a looping-bandwagon, we see the same looper-wars between manufacturers, here, day-in & day-out:
a battle over supplying the tiniest feature-set-possible which maybe/could/might please more uninformed consumers than its many already cross-eyed cousins does by being slightly more inclusive of things-mostly-done-years-ago.

the situation is straight-up lame, imo.
if you don't know better..... well, i (for one) think you should know better;
you have the resources & the access to build better, and to present (or, challenge) those capable musicians to make more music than they already do make, with what might still be fresh & new tools at their disposal..

see: hexe revolver, red panda particle, montréal assembly count to five, wmd geiger counter & etc etc etc:
all (& way more than i can list here) very interesting to increasing #'s of guitarists, it seems, all doing things we've been doing in software for years & years, but the musical explorations & results are satisfyingly different..... with a guitar-in-hand.

so, really, wtf is up with you all?
i've been there, in many times and in all kinds of company.
my history with looping design, consultation, manufacture goes way back.

i was there when Lexicon pulled the first Jamman out of the product-line after it only sold 12k units in the first year, underselling their minimum goal of 15k
i got the call when they'd rejected some very intelligent long-range plans for marketing;
and, i watched when they were late to return to the party after other offshore companies absolutely re-invigorated the looping market for guitarists:
anyway, sorry for that distraction.


but, now; now?
now, your loopers, they:
offer a song-form/phrase-format, only.
offer "beats".
offer no delay-style looping, with both feedback & oscillator modulations.
offer ridiculously un-ergonomic real-time interface possibilities (often).
offer few-to-none expression controls for guitarists whose hands are full.
offer no real musical approach to pitch, time and pitch-+-time manipulations.
offer limited midi.
offer extremely limited real-time editing; no slip+slide, no cut+paste, no slicing, no re-ordering, extremely limited multiply+divide.
offer not much "undo"-depth.
offer not very creative use of storage, recall, triggering & or "mixing".
offer no modulation.
offer no sequencing.
offer no randomisation applications.
offer no (or, minimally useful) tracks.
offer no randomisation possibilities.
offer little or minimally useful filtering/processing.

decades behind the times; decades.

there's a pretty tremendous GAPING HOLE in the creative/sound exploration arena of hardware-looping for guitarists, that arena which once-upon-a-time was, well, the electric guitarist's stock-in-trade.
remember the establishing, pioneering heroes of the electric guitar?
i don't play like them, but i remember & honor so many of them, every day. they seemed to me to often be saying things like:
"thanks! if you let me at that thing, maybe i'll show you things you didn't know could be done; maybe i'll even break it, in the trying."


so, what could be done, to bring your products up to speed & set a potentially more contemporary speed?

here's my first loose & partial outline of things which might be done:
1) FIRST, BUILD A SIMPLE LOOPER WITH HIGH-END OLD SCHOOL FEATURES & CAPABILITY: build an AFFORDABLE looping device that perfectly mimics every functionality of a modified lexicon pcm42 of the early 1980's, but with a few extra features, and which might be expandable/upgradeable,
2) NEXT, build a more expensive brand-newy looping device that incorporates the best of the EDP, Repeater & Looperlative, but with some extra-contemporary, groundbreaking (for hardware) features, and which might be expandable/upgradeable, OR
3) LASTLY, look at the above knowing what those boxes were (and STILL ARE) capable-of, and build something truly fresh & innovative, and
4) have a business plan with a healthy schedule, and make sure that clear & exciting & creatively intriguing educative materials --- videos & clinics, etc --- are made available to both customers & distributors.

and, def be aware that if you don't do this
--- taking advantage of the interfacing inbuilt into hardware platforms, and capitalising on the requirements of instrumentalists ---
others will do it, eventually.
software is already ahead, by a long shot..... which has slowly begun to attract more guitarists, but.....


Had to add this from David Torn. Thanks for the link Xarkon
yeah, as much as i'd like to have a fully specced looper in the axe, i just don't think it's going to happen. i use other devices for looping and in a sense this actually makes more sense. i can freely change patches while looping and add fx to the loops without worrying about glitches etc. the looper in the axe is basically a single track phrase sampler and it does it's job very well and is what probably 80% of people need from a looper. it's a great tool for practice and amp tweaking. the only thing i would like personally is the ability to use it as an effect, which would require the controls to be linked to internal modifiers, but i'm not sure it's possible to do. different people loop in different ways, because they have a different end goal and i think it's better to use another device for looping that has the feature set that you need.
Your probably right simeon. Just a dream at this point. For those that love gear and tinkering with plugs and switches (not me) there is no issue. I’ve never really loved gear and just like to make noise. I’m thinking about going down the rabbit hole of looping with Ableton as many already have. I think it’s probably the answer but have not been able to carve out the necessary time to tackle the learning curve.
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