Wish Looper always accessible

WbbS

Experienced
In my experience it would be useful to have the looper always accessible like the tuner.

You may set some kind of global settings to locate the looper in the chain and then chose to access the looper in any presets even if no specific looper block will be placed.

I already made a wish for the looper display, but I think the whole looper deserves a dedicated functionality and accessibility: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/direct-access-to-looper-display.173037/
 
Ran into the same wish. If a Looper is present, do nothing. If no Looper is present, add one internally, only parameter could be before which Output.
It's somewhat annoying (or user error?), when using my FC-6 that I can activate the Looper page, but then nothing happens.

Edit: in my case it would be the AF3.
 
what if there's not enough CPU to automatically add a looper?
With Kemper you have different length of recording depending on the CPU available. There may just be a warning that looper can't be added on that specific preset.
 
In my experience it would be useful to have the looper always accessible like the tuner.

You may set some kind of global settings to locate the looper in the chain and then chose to access the looper in any presets even if no specific looper block will be placed.

I already made a wish for the looper display, but I think the whole looper deserves a dedicated functionality and accessibility: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/direct-access-to-looper-display.173037/
I don’t see the point or advantage of this.

Adding a looper block is sufficient to provide the functionality wherever you want in a preset’s layout, and, if your layout doesn’t have a looper switch layout defined it’s easy to add one; It seems to me the default and OMG layouts have a looper page pre-defined so it’s already always available if you use those, just drop in the block in a preset where you want it, switch to that page in the layouts and have at it.

If we don’t want to have a looper then we don’t have to put it into a preset and we won’t have the added CPU overhead.

It's somewhat annoying (or user error?), when using my FC-6 that I can activate the Looper page, but then nothing happens.
That’s the same behavior that we see for drive, phaser, chorus, delay, etc., if they’re not defined in a preset. The layout is global, and if you don’t have that block defined in a preset then you can’t enable it, but the switch remains defined. You can override/reuse those unused defined switches on a preset-by-preset basis if you choose.

Helix makes you define your foot switches for every preset, whereas Fractal lets you define a default/global layout, which you can override on a preset basis, which is more flexible and easier in the long run.

But, back to the looper, either add a looper block and then the switches will work, or don’t add it and don’t go to the looper layout page and it won’t bother you.
 
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I don’t see the point or advantage of this.

Adding a looper block is sufficient to provide the functionality wherever you want in a preset’s layout, and, if your layout doesn’t have a looper switch layout defined it’s easy to add one; It seems to me the default and OMG layouts have a looper page pre-defined so it’s already always available if you use those, just drop in the block in a preset where you want it, switch to that page in the layouts and have at it.

If we don’t want to have a looper then we don’t have to put it into a preset and we won’t have the added CPU overhead.


That’s the same behavior that we see for drive, phaser, chorus, delay, etc., if they’re not defined in a preset. The layout is global, and if you don’t have that block defined in a preset then you can’t enable it, but the switch remains defined. You can override/reuse those unused defined switches on a preset-by-preset basis if you choose.

Helix makes you define your foot switches for every preset, whereas Fractal lets you define a default/global layout, which you can override on a preset basis, which is more flexible and easier in the long run.

But, back to the looper, either add a looper block and then the switches will work, or don’t add it and don’t go to the looper layout page and it won’t bother you.

Agreed Greg. The last thing you want is less cpu available because a part is always in use for the looper which you might not even want to use. Also: where put the looper automaticly? Before or after reverbs and delay?
Middle ground would be that it is a global option you can turn on and off. “Auto looper”. Or whatever you might want to call it.
 
This is why it is my wish and not yours :p
I came from Kemper and I had it always accessible. It is a feature I miss.
Then create a template that contains the looper block and use it to create your presets and it will always be available. It doesn’t need to be a global or system setting. Fractal already gives you the tools, just take advantage of them.
 
Then create a template that contains the looper block and use it to create your presets and it will always be available. It doesn’t need to be a global or system setting. Fractal already gives you the tools, just take advantage of them.
Oh man. Honestly I can’t understand why every now and then someone come in someone else wish just to say Fractal is perfect as it is and your wish is useless.

ok, ok. You don’t like it. Can I keep on wishing?

What you say involves more work. Have you ever used the looper in kemper to understand how easy it is to have it always available? When I buy 1000 presets packs do you want me to change all of them because I use the looper a lot?

I see, you don’t need it. Ok, move on. I personally would appreciate it.
 
Agreed Greg. The last thing you want is less cpu available because a part is always in use for the looper which you might not even want to use. Also: where put the looper automaticly? Before or after reverbs and delay?
Middle ground would be that it is a global option you can turn on and off. “Auto looper”. Or whatever you might want to call it.
You may activate/deactivate looper always available.
You may have a setting to decide where to place the looper globally.
 
This "where" might be a bit difficult to define, given the flexibility of the Axe's signal routing.
This is how it works on Kemper:


Looper Location Input
The Looper is placed right after the instrument input. It records the pure guitar signal and plays it back before the effect modules. When you change Rigs during the playback of the loop, you'll hear the playback processed by the different Rigs. However, when you perform overdubs, then all overdubs will be run through the same Rig, as if multiple guitars were played through the same amp at the same time.


Looper Location Output
The Looper is placed right after the last effect - the REV module. It records the fully processed stereo signal. When you change Rigs during the playback of the loop, the playback sound will not change! This allows you to play along, or even overdub, with an unlimited number of different Rigs.

You may always have the looper block for maximum flexibility AND the global setting.
 
You may activate/deactivate looper always available.
You may have a setting to decide where to place the looper globally.

When I think of my presets with parallel lines and delays and reverbs and plex delay in different positions I do not think that auto placement is possible. But then again, maybe they can get it done, who knows..
 
Oh man. Honestly I can’t understand why every now and then someone come in someone else wish just to say Fractal is perfect as it is and your wish is useless.
Nobody said that Fractals are perfect, or that your wish is useless. You need to understand that we are trying to figure out exactly what you want, how you see it being implemented, and whether there are suitable workarounds. That is what helping others is about.

The majority of people here are not Kemper users, most of us never used Kemper, so we're not at all familiar with how Kemper does things, and until you finally explained it we still needed that information.

Based on the information you just posted, Fractal can do those things already. The difference is you're used to not having the flexibility of placing the block anywhere you want it, so you want Fractal to implement Kemper's way of doing it. Yes, Kemper's way is simpler and requires less work but there's that tradeoff with flexibility.

Pushing the looper location into a global setting is possible, and there is one existing precedence: A foot pedal can be used as a volume at input or output without adding a block, or, as is often used, a separate VolPan block can be dropped in wherever it needs to be. Kind'a similarly, a wah can be globally defined as a specific pedal input but it still has to have the block loaded into the preset wherever the user wants it. But, neither of those have the RAM or CPU demands of a looper.

When I buy 1000 presets packs do you want me to change all of them because I use the looper a lot?
@AlGrenadine might have a trick up his FracTool sleeve where it could do a batch insert, but it can't warn of CPU or RAM overload problems, and if you're going to buy and load 1000 preset packs and use a built-in looper, then you're still going to have to go through them all to confirm whether the preset will function. So, one way or another that task will exist, and that's the crux of the problem; It's not going to go away whether this capability is global or local to the preset.

And, just for some background, here's what Cliff had to say about loopers:

On the FM3, AX8 and Axe-Fx series, the Looper is a dedicated effect block, providing minutes of stereo or mono loop time.

On the FX8, the Looper is a global feature, which position is customizable.
"Loopers have unique hardware requirements, i.e. lots of memory. General-purpose guitar processors like the Axe-Fx don't need the amounts of memory that loopers require and adding that memory for a single effect would increase costs, probably considerably. Furthermore the processors used in products like the Axe-Fx are limited in the amount of memory they can address. The DSP used in the Axe-Fx III is the most powerful commercial DSP available but it's still limited in it's memory address space. Also, most loopers trade off bit-depth and sample rate for loop time. Therefore you're unlikely to ever find a multi-effect that has the loop time and features as a dedicated looper. If I were to make a dedicated looper I probably wouldn't use a DSP but something like an ARM with a lot of external address space. There isn't really much audio processing required, it's mostly memory access."

The FX8 does support the sort of global/fixed block processing you're talking about, but that's a different architecture. IF the FM3 had dedicated memory for a looper and the appropriate processor it would probably be possible to do what you want based on what Cliff said, but it doesn't in its current incarnation.

If Fractal was to modify the firmware to allow the looper to work as you say, existing presets that are pushing the limits would most likely fail; Trying to fix them would require finding them, possibly having to reboot and start on an empty preset if the CPU is horribly overloaded, turning off the global setting, editing the preset then saving it, turning it back on and seeing if the preset behaved. Rinse and repeat. A lot.

If looping was important to me, and I didn't want to manually inspect or add it to presets or worry about CPU or RAM issues, I'd buy a dedicated looper and stick it before or after the FM3. From my experience, the small TC Ditto is a fun gizmo but any looper would work in this situation without any of the concerns.
 
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Nobody said that Fractals are perfect, or that your wish is useless. You need to understand that we are trying to figure out exactly what you want, how you see it being implemented, and whether there are suitable workarounds. That is what helping others is about.

The majority of people here are not Kemper users, most of us never used Kemper, so we're not at all familiar with how Kemper does things, and until you finally explained it we still needed that information.

Based on the information you just posted, Fractal can do those things already. The difference is you're used to not having the flexibility of placing the block anywhere you want it, so you want Fractal to implement Kemper's way of doing it. Yes, Kemper's way is simpler and requires less work but there's that tradeoff with flexibility.

Pushing the looper location into a global setting is possible, and there is one existing precedence: A foot pedal can be used as a volume at input or output without adding a block, or, as is often used, a separate VolPan block can be dropped in wherever it needs to be. Kind'a similarly, a wah can be globally defined as a specific pedal input but it still has to have the block loaded into the preset wherever the user wants it. But, neither of those have the RAM or CPU demands of a looper.


@AlGrenadine might have a trick up his FracTool sleeve where it could do a batch insert, but it can't warn of CPU or RAM overload problems, and if you're going to buy and load 1000 preset packs and use a built-in looper, then you're still going to have to go through them all to confirm whether the preset will function. So, one way or another that task will exist, and that's the crux of the problem; It's not going to go away whether this capability is global or local to the preset.

And, just for some background, here's what Cliff had to say about loopers:



The FX8 does support the sort of global/fixed block processing you're talking about, but that's a different architecture. IF the FM3 had dedicated memory for a looper and the appropriate processor it would probably be possible to do what you want based on what Cliff said, but it doesn't in its current incarnation.

If Fractal was to modify the firmware to allow the looper to work as you say, existing presets that are pushing the limits would most likely fail; Trying to fix them would require finding them, possibly having to reboot and start on an empty preset if the CPU is horribly overloaded, turning off the global setting, editing the preset then saving it, turning it back on and seeing if the preset behaved. Rinse and repeat. A lot.

If looping was important to me, and I didn't want to manually inspect or add it to presets or worry about CPU or RAM issues, I'd buy a dedicated looper and stick it before or after the FM3. From my experience, the small TC Ditto is a fun gizmo but any looper would work in this situation without any of the concerns.
Just for reference, in a totally empty FM3 grid the CPU % peaks at up-to 13.2%. Adding only the Looper block it peaked at 18.2%, so, whether the looper is global or local it's using 5% since a block uses CPU even if it's disabled. A global block invisibly inserted into a preset would do the same.
 
There are advantages to both ways of handling a looper.
We had a global Looper on the FX8.

In my opinion, It's much better to have the Looper NOT be Global. It chews up some CPU and needs to be located in very different locations across different rig designs.
 
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