Looking For Help With A Single Stereo Or Dual Mono Active FRFR System

Hi Everyone:

I hope everyone here is doing well and your tones are everything you imagined they would or could ever be (or damm close for that matter). 😄

Happily, after a three-year absence from Fractal Land, I am coming back and very excited to do so. This weekend I will be purchasing the AxeFx III, I will be starting with a single FC6 controller that if need be I will add another one later on down the road and in addition I will be purchasing two expression pedals and the Cab Lab.

I was in trusting the help of the forum members here and your ears as well as your experience for those of you using FRFR systems to help comb thru the weeds in regard to what exactly I should be looking at. I think it would help you all to a great degree in helping me if you better understood my situation so let me give you a brief background and I can tell you then exactly what I am looking for .............

Predominantly, I can be labeled as a Blues Rock / Bluesmetal original guitarist, singer songwriter. My debut album will be out tentatively January 17, 2020 and I will be touring in support of my album shortly thereafter. All the guitar tones heard on the album will be from the AxeFX III. I also own a recording studio running several Universal Audio Apollo X Series units along with their entire library of plug ins with both Pro Tools and Studio One 4.5 Professional as my DAW options into an extremely powerful host computer with both Tannoy and Focal Studio Monitors. To ensure the absolute most flat, most accurate mixes in studio possible, the faculty has been properly acoustically treated and in addition iK Multimedia's ARC 2.5 Room Correction administered and employed.

In addition to the above, I am also a hired gun for many bands of every genre you can imagine on the live end both covers and originals respectively, a fill in for wedding bands, hire for studio sessions of anything you can think of working from my studio or another facility for anything from bands to solo artists to television and film and even advertisement companies. So now you see why I came back to Fractal Audio.

I will be using my system everywhere I go and for everything that I do. This will include the FRFR system. From a live perspective, I intend to have said FRFR system with me at every live show possible. In situations where that is not possible I use my JH Audio Roxanne IEM's when necessary. So I will essentially always have a stereo feed running to Front Of House while running the FRFR system or IEM's simultaneously.

Phew! that was alot to explain. 😅

So now with that being said, let me explain EXACTLY what I'm looking for to all of you and I want to know if this even exists in an active powered FRFR product.

One word : CONSISTENCY

How exactly? Well, in the sense that when I make a patch or scene and I walk away from the stage where my FRFR system is and I go out front to hear the FOH the audience hears, I don't want to hear a difference, I don't want to hear coloration because if I do and it is majorly, decisively different, knowing how I am I will tweak on the fly to compensate and then suddenly my end of what I hear or the crowd end of what they hear will undoubtedly suffer to a degree.

Now I fully understand that nothing will be exact and I get that, but how about as close to the same as possible barely detectable to the human ear? In that sense there has to be something out there. Please do not include the Meyer System here as I don't have that kind of money. 😆 This dame scenario I would like to have in my own studio and other studios as well.

My total budget for this I would like to see not get past $2,000 but I can go as high as $3,000 max. I know that the most expensive doesn't always mean the best either.

I am looking for answers from those with extensive experience. My last FRFR system was with my AxeFx II XL+ and consisted of a Matrix GT1600 Power Amp powering two Matrix Passive FR 212's. While this was a massive system that moved a tornado worth of air that could take down a barn, the sound was too different from what I heard compared to what the audience heard. Also it was too big and too heavy. Those 212's were like picking up a 412 Oversized Recto Cabinet. The AxeFx III will have a permanent home inside a portable 3 space padded rack shoulder bag. With that being said, a pair of 112 active wedges or square cabs would be perfect with a good amount of headroom or the same in an active 212 BUT that is provided the speakers are off axis on the baffle at least by 80 degrees to avoid phase issues which I otherwise would not get with the active 112 systems. They can be Coaxial or discreet Woofer, Tweeter, FR Horn Systems but I probably would prefer Coaxial for the mere fact that should I ever need to mic each cabinet up I can do so.

Aside of my former Matrix system, I have only heard the Friedman ASM12's and just like the Matrix system I had, there was a massive difference in terms of what I heard on my end and what the audience heard. So again, the keys here are......

1.) Consistency from FRFR to FOH Systems in terms of what is heard

2.) Must be an Active Powered System

3.) As flat as possible

4.) Headroom is very important

5.) Can be wedge or cabinet format

I don't care who the manufacturer is be it Line 6, Xitone, Mission, Matrix, Atomic.

Finally, I apologize for the length of this post, I just wanted to be as detailed as possible to avoid as many follow up questions as possible but if anything was missed and imperative to you all helping me then please by all means ask me anything you need to.

I look forward to getting back to this and hope everyone is doing great. Thank You in advance for whatever help you all can provide. I appreciate you all.

All The Best:

DB
 
Oh one other thing........

I realize every house sound system is different and sounds different. I also understand that the FOH Engineer will tweak his end to make things sound their best. To be a little more specific I meant that between different FOH systems when everything is set flat at 12 o'clock before they tweak their end is where I meant I was seeking the most color free and flat system possible.

Thanks again.
 
There is no such thing as consistency. Simple. Don't have that expectation, otherwise you will be unhappy with whatever FRFR system you get, then you will replace it with another, and another, and so on.

I know, I've been there.

The reason is simple: there is no consistency between one FOH and another, and there is no consistency between one venue and another. How can your specific FRFR "magically" be consistent with so many different FOH systems in so many different venues???

I stopped chasing that mirage after investing several thousands of dollars. I eventually reached inner peace when I accepted the fact that my stage sound is the way I want it to be, and if*necessary I adjust the global EQ for FOH.
 
What Dpoirier said is spot on. The Mission Gemini uses the same 12" and horn that Xitone does. The two however used different power amps and I'm also not sure how the crossover differs between the two. Xitone active wedges would be my choice over the mission just on weight and form factor and if you wanted to you can edit the EQ DSP.

Welcome to the rabbit hole of FRFR. You can either pick one and love it or wonder what your missing with the other brand. That said personally I've spent a bunch of money on the quest. In my case I'm up against a real tube amp and 4x12 my band mate uses.

How does what you're hearing from your studio monitors translate to your in ears? For me I do 100% of my home practice with in ears. They are dual driver with custom molds in the $450.00 range and sound awesome to me. Bandmates amp has a speaker sim out and sounds nothing at all like what his amp sounds live through a 4x12. Tons of low end and high end missing live.

Ive owned three of the top FRFR solutions and I'm running two Friedman ASM-12's this week. I'm also trying a wet dry wet rig this weekend for the first time. Biggest problem for me has been mid cut of bandmates real amp vrs my FRFR, he's loud and doesn't get much volume in the PA where as I have less mid cut and more in the PA. Spent the afternoon setting up the W-D-W rig adjusting volume and cut of the AFX to match the tube amp.

Good luck on your quest.
 
Similar CV to yours, I need versatility more than anything else. Live gigs, studio, TV, backing different artists - all has to be catered for.
I also already have a studio full of amps of many types, a bazillion pedals and other multi-Fx units (Boss, TC Electronic, Digitech, Line 6, Zoom, etc etc) and racks full of guitars.

My current go-to rig? An Axe Fx3 and a Helix Rack running into a pair of Line 6 Powercab Pluses. The Helix Rack is connected via Line 6 Link XLR, and the Axe Fx3 goes straight to the instrument inputs. I sit the PC+s about 2 metres apart and get great stereo (can spread wider if needed of course), and at 250W each, I can get more volume than my residual hearing can tolerate. My ears are already "well worn", so I'm very conscious of protecting what hearing I have left. I connect to the Helix and the Axe Fx3 via Line 6 G10S wireless units - their new stompbox-sized ones. Hasn't failed me yet.

Having both the Helix and the Axe Fx3 is almost certainly overkill, but I'm a self-confessed GASoholic ;) But those Powercab Pluses are superb. And if you want a single 2x12 that is heavier than one PC+, but only one to carry in to gigs, Line 6 have just released the Powercab 2x12, at 500W.

Flat mode on the PC+ is pretty close to what it says on the tin, while of course you can also call up different speaker/mike IRs and either leave the cab blocks off the modellers, or just tweak to suit. Even though it may "break the rules", I think the speaker modes of the PC+s can actually sound good in different venues despite leaving the cab modelling on at the Helix or the Axe Fx3. Ain't no rule that can't be broken if it sounds better...! ;)
 
I almost went for the Gemini 2 from Mission until I saw that about Line 6. My reason for as much transparency in an FRFR is simple in that I know from PA to PA it will all be different, but if I dial in on my Focal and Tannoy Studio Monitors, then check the patches / scenes thru my FRFR's which will be used for all non fly gigs and the sound I hear from both is just about the same or 95% the same then for one I know I have the right FRFR and second, when I go to a venue if the sound guy running FOH says "This is gonna be a problem," which he shouldn't after I checked myself twice to be absolutely sure I will just say "Don't EQ me at the board like you would a guitarist. Set everything flat at 12 Noon on the board and then sweep each frequency extremely minimally in either direction as you should merely only need to fine tune me on your system." When I had my Matrix system, that wasn't possible. I would roll into a recording studio and the engineer would say "Holy shit! We can't use that. It sounds awful." That's because there was not enough transparency and too much color in the FRFR system to even get me near the ballpark. Same with live. I'd plug into the PA and it was horrible. This is why if you are a gigging guitarist or studio cat or both who wants to make his patches Universal for ALL situations you don't buy anything but the most transparent FRFR system out there that you can afford. If you don't do what I do than yes the Friedman, Matrix, Alto, Headrush and many other systems you can certainly buy and tailor to taste as you are looking for that "Amp In The Room" feel. But I have keenly noticed so far that the two that get closest unless someone knows something I don't are the Mission and Line 6 Systems. This also explains why when you have Tube Amp Purists who come to the digital format, they complain in doesn't still "feel", "sound" or react like a tube amp. Well yeah, that's because you can't treat it that way. If you can't get your head around that simple fact then coming from tube land you will never be happy. You have to have tunnel vision. Finding transparency can't be about being dedicated to a specific brand or the hottest trend. I sometimes am guilty of that and it has cost me a lot of money. You get older and wiser though. 😆
 
My total budget for this I would like to see not get past $2,000 but I can go as high as $3,000 max. I know that the most expensive doesn't always mean the best either.

1.) Consistency from FRFR to FOH Systems in terms of what is heard

2.) Must be an Active Powered System

3.) As flat as possible

4.) Headroom is very important

5.) Can be wedge or cabinet format

I don't care who the manufacturer is be it Line 6, Xitone, Mission, Matrix, Atomic.
Grab two Atomic CLRs. Fits your criteria and budget. It's consistent, active, and very flat, with very high headroom.
I think I'll try the Mission Gemini 2 for starters. 😁
Mission Gemini speakers are dumb designs. Heavy, expensive, and underpowered. Not recommended.

And in general, a stereo-in-one speaker doesn't work as well as two separate speakers. And one big heavy thing is harder to carry than two smaller lighter things.
My reason for as much transparency in an FRFR is simple in that I know from PA to PA it will all be different, but if I dial in on my Focal and Tannoy Studio Monitors, then check the patches / scenes thru my FRFR's which will be used for all non fly gigs and the sound I hear from both is just about the same or 95% the same then for one I know I have the right FRFR
There's a few notable and experienced guys on this forum who use the CLR as their studio monitor as well as FRFR. That ought to tell ya something.
 
Heavy, expensive, and underpowered. Not recommended.
Have you played one or been in the room with one?

I have, and do not agree that they are underpowered. They are LOUD!

I know they are listed at only 110W or something... but I think that is misleading.

The guys at Mission Engineering explained it to a group of us that were there because the question was raised. I don't remember the answer, though. Something about the amp and speaker efficiency.
 
Have you played one or been in the room with one?

I have, and do not agree that they are underpowered. They are LOUD!
Haven't played one.

I'm not saying it can't be loud, whatever "loud" means to you. But it's not as loud as other products like it, and it's not as loud as it could be. It's very underspec'ed for its own speaker. Either 1)they don't know how to spec a power amp for a speaker, 2)they don't know how to use any other power amps, or 3)they don't know how to incorporate speaker protection (limiter, thermal, etc.) and chose to underspec it. Whatever it is, the 100 W power amp on it is just dumb.

Their latest speaker product was also a joke. They showed it at NAMM, forums laughed at the product, and the product never came out.
 
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I'm actually waiting on a Line 6 Powercab 212 and two CLR's. The one I like best will be the one ( or in the case of the CLR two) I keep
 
I can only comment from memory, but I think it would compare in volume to my 2 Xitone wedges with Matrix GT800fx, which is pretty loud.
Let me try to clarify. When auditioning monitors in a room at a typical distance, a high sensitivity speaker with just ten watts or so from the power amp can produce sound levels that would cause hearing damage. A speaker can be underpowered and loud, it just won't be able to get as loud as similar other products. And so, I doubt you turned up the Gemini to its full wattage when you were in a room with one to even know if it gets as loud as some of your other speakers.

So my point isn't about can it get loud enough in a room, it's about the design. The Gemini has a 250W speaker and only powers it with 110W. It should be using a 500+W power amp cus that's what fits the design. Trying an analogy, it's like seeing a V12 sports car that only uses 8 of its cylinders. It might still be fast to some degree, but it should inspire in you a feeling of wtf is this car.
 
Let me try to clarify. When auditioning monitors in a room at a typical distance, a high sensitivity speaker with just ten watts or so from the power amp can produce sound levels that would cause hearing damage. A speaker can be underpowered and loud, it just won't be able to get as loud as similar other products. And so, I doubt you turned up the Gemini to its full wattage when you were in a room with one to even know if it gets as loud as some of your other speakers.

So my point isn't about can it get loud enough in a room, it's about the design. The Gemini has a 250W speaker and only powers it with 110W. It should be using a 500+W power amp cus that's what fits the design. Trying an analogy, it's like seeing a V12 sports car that only uses 8 of its cylinders. It might still be fast to some degree, but it should inspire in you a feeling of wtf is this car.
What's a "typical distance"?

I was probably the distance you would be if it was being used for backline on a decent sized club stage and you were in the first few rows. Maybe 25 feet away and it was a good sized room... I wasn't playing it, rather watching a demonstration.

In get that you don't like the design, and I'm fine that you let others know... And I really don't care about the Gemini as I don't have one or desire to one.

And you seem to have a fair bit of knowledge on the subject matter.

But claiming things about how it performs when you have no practical experience with it merely because you don't think it's a good design seems unfair.

After all, by pure design, apparently a bumblebee should not be able to fly ;)

Anyway... I don't care to fight about it. I've said what I need to say based on my limited experience. I'll leave it at that.
 
But claiming things about how it performs when you have no practical experience with it merely because you don't think it's a good design seems unfair.
I claimed that it's heavy, expensive, and underpowered. Why do I need practical experience to make those comments, and how is that unfair?
 
You don't, but you also said it's not as loud as other solutions ;)
Yeah, it's not. Loudness is a function of speaker sensitivity and power applied, the Gemini dimed will be at least 6dB quieter than similar speakers with proper power amps.
 
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