Live bands playing along to karaoke tracks - Moral Issue?

jimfist said:
bars and nightclubs...Those acts who ATTRACT A LARGE CROWD get paid the good money...always has been this way historically. Granted, most that make money usually can minimally demonstrate a decent level of musicianship, but not all. Financially, things were much better in the 1980s than today IMHO, yet you had plenty of bands that were what we called "posers", copying the LA hair metal bands for example - all show and no substance - and making plenty of money in the process drawing large audiences locally. Entertainment does not automatically = musicianship.

Point being that it is the musician him/herself who sets their own personal bar for musical "integrity"...not how much you're getting paid. Following the $$$ does not, 100% of the time, necessarily mean that the most talented make the most money. You need also to be entertaining and attract an audience.
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It's not always the bar or club owner's fault pay is low. If the band draws 25 people, it's the band's fault. Talent doesn't enter that equation. The bar or club owner could care less how well the guitar player nailed the Vai solo, he cares about profit, as he should.
I'm in a cover band, that to be honest, is full of mediocre musicians, myself included. We always play within our ability, have a good time, and over the 20yrs. we've been together, draw a consistent crowd.
We make considerably more money than many more talented bar bands in our area because of our draw.
Maybe not fair, just the way it is.
That said, I'd play for free, love it when crowd is having a good time, just don't tell our agent!


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It's not about the money, the crowd drawl, or the talent. It's all about the music! There's only two types of music: good and bad... If it's good, then it's all good!
 
favance said:
It's not about the money, the crowd drawl, or the talent. It's all about the music! There's only two types of music: good and bad... If it's good, then it's all good!
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Agreed! We have a blast playing. We aren't mediocre for lack of practice, we are a tight band. Just know where we stand in the pecking order, lol. No monster chops, just honest, fun music.


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I see a lot of stuff about bars and clubs not paying enough to pay a 7 piece band, and yeah, I get it. The bar needs to make money. Hiring a band is like using a billboard. If the billboard doesnt bring more sales, it's not worth it. That being said, you dont need a 7 piece band, or backing tracks to make good music. That's an excuse for not meeting a certain standard in musicianship. I refuse to rely on a computer to make my band sound good. Maybe I'm a purist a-hole, but I dont think so. My band regularly gets paid a "living wage" because we're good musicians and have developed a good reputation. We are just a four piece country band, guitar being the only lead instrument. When there is a fiddle part, and I dont have a fiddle player, i play the damn thing on guitar. Same with piano and strings. If you cant play the song on your instrument of choice and do it justice, either you or the song have no business being on stage in front of people. Backing tracks are lazy, and disgusting as far as I'm concerned, and you'll never catch me anywhere near them. And I get paid plenty. I'd suggest staying out of clubs, and play more casinos, corporate events, weddings, etc. The only caveat is, they do expect you to sound good, and if you cant do it without the tracks, theres other people who can, and you wont get paid what you expect if you can't deliver. But trust me, it can be done! Leave the damn computer at home. Even if you recorded the tracks yourself, you shouldn't be proud. You had unlimited takes to get it right. Nothing impressive about that. Nothing impressive about pushing a button either. Maybe the reason that pay is so low is that there are too many bands using tracks to sound decent? Or maybe too many musicians willing to play for peanuts because they cant get the higher paying gigs? Too many young bands that want to "get their music out there" even if it means playing cheap or free? Playing music is the hardest thing I've ever done, and as far as I'm concerned I still suck at it despite the many years of training. Seeing a band come and fake it with tracks just plain pissss me off. That gig could have gone to a musician. Ok, that's enough, I guess.
 
I was watching Steve Vai at generation Axe, and he was playing FTLOG

Band was tight- keyboardist doing the sitar parts- really consistent tempo wise- I was even thinking how spot on they were...

Then the bridge/middle of the song came up and I heard these random tiny drums that no one else on earth knows is on the original recording but me- too stupid for anyone to notice and also noticed 3 other parts with really obscure subtle parts only I'd recognized.... they were faking it too- or like, half of them.

I hate seeing bands charging $100+ a ticket to hear a guy singing that's not on any of their hits or records. Or pumping in all the backup vocals
 
^ yup ... and venue 'stage' sizes are generally shrinking.

There's a few of our main all live band members who also do backing track band work .... 2 piece, 3 piece etc. We're lucky to get 1 gig a month with the 6 piece live band but the smaller break away bands can get 6 to 8 gigs (and usually a larger fee per member).

The full live band always gets the thumbs up from us for enjoyment factor but we all tend to agree that having some sort of live performance is important to keep some semblance of live music going in pubs and clubs and not just let them become poxy DJ with a Spotify playlist gigs.

It may feel like a cop out to use backing tracks but having some live elements like guitar and bass can at least look somewhat like a proper band and keep the 'live' scene going.
 
Jeries said:
I was watching Steve Vai at generation Axe, and he was playing FTLOG

Band was tight- keyboardist doing the sitar parts- really consistent tempo wise- I was even thinking how spot on they were...

Then the bridge/middle of the song came up and I heard these random tiny drums that no one else on earth knows is on the original recording but me- too stupid for anyone to notice and also noticed 3 other parts with really obscure subtle parts only I'd recognized.... they were faking it too- or like, half of them.

I hate seeing bands charging $100+ a ticket to hear a guy singing that's not on any of their hits or records. Or pumping in all the backup vocals
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I opened for Vai one time. I saw that stuff too. I was pretty let down and disappointed. Really shocking to me that even pros these days are using tracks and charging for it. More surprising than anything else I guess, but Phillip Bynoe is an awesome bass player regardless, and it's pretty hard to be critical of Steve Vai. Bands like the Eagles never did that crap, and they were fantastic. They probably do nowadays, though. Lots of local bands are doing it here, too. I was playing a gig filling in with my buddies band, and we were getting ready to play that wagon wheel song. It has an acoustic guitar intro. My buddy who fronts the band plays acoustic guitar, and actually plays it pretty well. To my dismay I heard the intro, looked over, and he wasnt playing. I hung my head in shame that night. Super embarrassing to me. Fiddle and guitar, with nobody behind the wheel. Luckily, some of the more high profile venues here, though not many of them, wont hire bands that run tracks. Good for me, bad for a lot of bands that have come to rely on them for their performance.
 
maxdown said:
^ yup ... and venue 'stage' sizes are generally shrinking.

There's a few of our main all live band members who also do backing track band work .... 2 piece, 3 piece etc. We're lucky to get 1 gig a month with the 6 piece live band but the smaller break away bands can get 6 to 8 gigs (and usually a larger fee per member).

The full live band always gets the thumbs up from us for enjoyment factor but we all tend to agree that having some sort of live performance is important to keep some semblance of live music going in pubs and clubs and not just let them become poxy DJ with a Spotify playlist gigs.

It may feel like a cop out to use backing tracks but having some live elements like guitar and bass can at least look somewhat like a proper band and keep the 'live' scene going.
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Yep, that's why I've been moving away from doing club gigs. They just aren't what they used to be. Club owners fight you over 100 bucks, and try to pay you in chicken wings. Meanwhile half the bands in town, most of which arent that good anyway, can undercut you and go in there for 100 bucks or less per player. And most of the time the club owner doesnt really care if the band is good or bad, so long as they have one in there, so they go for the cheaper band every time. And a laptop us a lot cheaper than a musician. I wish more musicians would just say no to playing so cheap. If we all said no, they'd HAVE to pay us more.
 
Guit-some said:
Yep, that's why I've been moving away from doing club gigs. They just aren't what they used to be. Club owners fight you over 100 bucks, and try to pay you in chicken wings. Meanwhile half the bands in town, most of which arent that good anyway, can undercut you and go in there for 100 bucks or less per player. And most of the time the club owner doesnt really care if the band is good or bad, so long as they have one in there, so they go for the cheaper band every time. And a laptop us a lot cheaper than a musician. I wish more musicians would just say no to playing so cheap. If we all said no, they'd HAVE to pay us more.
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In my experience club owners do care if the band is good or bad. If only because it can be the difference between having a good night with lots of turnover vs. a bad night that only cost money. And in this case I define good as that band being known to draw in a large crowd. Which doesn't have to be good musically, but then again any band that draws in a large crowd is still good at something. Any cheapo Johnny Unknown band that is unknown to draw in a large crowd is usually more of a risk to a club owner then a band with some known name and following.

As for the OP (Holy Thread Necromancing Batman, resurrecting a 6 year old dead and buried thread?), backing tracks are here to stay. As has been said, BT's means less mouths to feed, less people to argue with on tour. And for big acts its a means to keep the shows focused on the band, not have the stage cluttered with additional musicians, like happened with Pink Floyd.

People are so used to preprogrammed electronic crap that they now consider a DJ playing a playlist from his iPod an act. Guys with playlists on their iPod's now travel the world being treated as rock stars as they play their playlists in stadiums and arenas, while real bands struggle to draw in an audience. I've been working on a weeklong festival this week and you know what draw in the biggest audience? As in packed the place so tight you could walk on heads? A DJ collective. The general audience doesn't give a f*** anymore about real music or canned music. Sometimes they want to see a real band, sometimes they just want to move to music, any music, doesn't matter the source. And we are worrying about some bands playing along to a backing track? This war is over. We are in the ruins of Berlin while the DJ Red Army has us surrounded and corned on all sides.
 
How does it work if your the type of musician who performs kind of DJ style sets made up of various loops and stuff ? Your “live” set is all pre-recorded parts, but your creating it on the fly, kind of a remix I guess you could say...
 
How about when I play “solo” stuff using my Maschine drum machine ??? It’s programmed, not a loop, but it’s not a live drummer with me either, but I played the stuff in finger style on my pads, but just not at that present time....

Of course if it’s a drum machine maybe it’s written off as electronic crap, but what if my samples are acoustic kits and not a TR909 ?


Maybe we shouldn’t waste time worrying about such stuff and just enjoy the performance for whatever it is....

All and all seems to come off as arrogance and/or jealousy more than anything to me.....

Guys with tube amps still will look down on a modeler, it’s not “real” music, it’s fake, it’s not authentic etc...

Guys with live backing look down in canned backing same way it seems, not “real” musicians, fake, immoral.....

Who cares really ?

I’d rather enjoy a great dj set than a bunch of “real” musics playing a crap set personally....

If there is a live drummer who sucks I’ll take a well programmed drum machine any day of the week.

I enjoy and appreciate good live performances as much as anyone, but at the end of the day I simply like good music of any form and manner.

Ultimately is a bit more enjoyable to just find things to appreciate in life and not worry so much about how everyone else is doing it wrong, or less pure et al.
 
As long as they honor the copyright constraints and adhere to the public performance requirements then I would have no problem. Thou shall not steal.
 
iaresee said:
You write your music before you perform it? Weak. Real music is generated spontaneously. /sarcasm
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Let’s not even go into the “ethics” of faking a flanger effect with a pedal instead of paying a real person to put their thumbs on some tape reels...

Or the morally questionable emulation of an acoustic space with a digital reverb pedal instead of mic’ing up an actual cathedral.....

Technology is costing jobs and cheating the audiences out of the real authentic way music should be created and experienced.
 
After decades of playing in traditional bands I started jamming to some of my own recording sessions back in 1998 to keep my sanity after moving from my hometown music base. Started thinking why not have 2 people sound like 4 or 3 people sound like 5. Where is the harm? I mean the live players are playing live.

When I moved back to my home base I was finally was able to start implementing this hybrid type band in 2011. I would record bass to a cheesy MIDI drum track and send to my buddy in Dallas who is a stellar drummer. He would replace the guide drums with his Roland kit and we would run it back out using Superior 3. Sometimes I would noodle out a keyboard or organ part or invite a guest musician to do a minor accent part.

I would master the backing track and, with a couple of friends, play 2 live guitars with vocals along to it using a computer software program called Showbuddy. It would control my Fractal changing every preset at the exact right time so I had a world of sound with not one button push... just play. It would also control mixer, Eventide, other guitar amp (up to 9 devices at one time) as well as fog and light show. We are 100% IEM with no amplified stage sound or sound man so another friend that had done sound for BB King, Earth Wind and Fire, and other well known acts when he lived in CA, would come over and help us tweak and fine tune.

I have never had any band or scenario challenge me more or make me work harder both technologically or musically. There is 'zero' forgiveness in playing to a backing track. You get it perfect or you look like an idiot. We run in stereo, our sound is awesome, we are having fun and we play tighter than a crabs ass. We setup 30, 40, 50K worth of gear (lost track) and we usually don't make squat.
Point being I know I won't be apologizing for this hybrid style because music for me has never been better. ​
 
Worse to me are the bands with long pre-recorded intros where they all stand around looking bored while it plays. Seen with multiple national touring acts.
 
It's cool how this thread just went from 2013 to today :)

If tracks help get gigs I'm all for it. I've been in bands with them and without.. mostly without. Applied very sparingly and tastefully it can fill out your sound and make certain songs feasible that wouldn't be otherwise.

The worst thing is if something goes wrong technically live.. like if the drummer loses sync, or the singer comes in 4 bars late. It can get train wreck UGLY when you go off the rails with backing tracks!
 
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