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Liquid-Foot Pro vs Gordius Big Little Giant Foot Controller

holdenhinkle

Inspired
Hello Fellow Axers,

I've decided I cannot wait any longer. I'm interested in purchasing either the Liquid Foot Pro or the Gordius Big Little Giant Foot Controller.

Is one better than the other? Can one do things the other cannot?

Any input would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
 

voes

Fractal Fanatic
holdenhinkle said:
Hello Fellow Axers,

I've decided I cannot wait any longer. I'm interested in purchasing either the Liquid Foot Pro or the Gordius Big Little Giant Foot Controller.

Is one better than the other? Can one do things the other cannot?

Any input would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Both are execellent footcontroller.

I myself own the LF Pro, so I only can commit on that.
IMHO best controller their is! Some of things it can:
  • You can choose between 6 PC or 12 PC. and every PC can be also a IA[/*:m:2xqlvztd]
  • standard 16 IA's x 4pages. and with the new firmware pushing an IA more than 1s or 2s calls another IA![/*:m:2xqlvztd]
  • each IA can send 20 ON and 20 OFF commands and that can be everything that's possible in MIDI: PC, CC, note on/off, sysex, special (cloning,...)[/*:m:2xqlvztd]
  • Axe-fx tuner[/*:m:2xqlvztd]
  • Autoload of axe-fx presets (name and on/off settings IA)[/*:m:2xqlvztd]
  • Grouping of IA: if you have 3 IA's (for instance 3 delays) you can group them and if you push one, the other 2 will go in off-status[/*:m:2xqlvztd]
  • 4 expression pedal inputs. I rebuild my FV-500 with a toe-switch and now I can change my expression pedal from external1 (wah) to external8 (vol, pitch...) in my axe-fx[/*:m:2xqlvztd]
  • Cloning. great feature if you have a IA on another page. on page 1 you have drive and on page 2 also. if you change the state of drive on page 1 it will also change on page 2[/*:m:2xqlvztd]
  • You can trigger another IA[/*:m:2xqlvztd]
  • Sysex-commands: you can store and send more than 200 sysex-command lines[/*:m:2xqlvztd]
  • ...[/*:m:2xqlvztd]
  • ...[/*:m:2xqlvztd]
  • And last but not least, great customerservice[/*:m:2xqlvztd]

In fact, I just can't imagine what the LF can't do :cool:
 

Chuk

Inspired
Nice summary Patrick.
I'm getting very tempted. As much as i've tried to stay loyal to FAS, my FCB1010 is slowly dying so i may have to jump ship.
I'll give it to the anniversary of my 'waiting list registration' (1st July) afterwhich i'll probably order the LF Pro.
I've also ordered an FV500L. That toe switch mod sounds interesting. ?
 

voes

Fractal Fanatic
Chuk said:
Nice summary Patrick.
I'm getting very tempted. As much as i've tried to stay loyal to FAS, my FCB1010 is slowly dying so i may have to jump ship.
I'll give it to the anniversary of my 'waiting list registration' (1st July) afterwhich i'll probably order the LF Pro.
I've also ordered an FV500L. That toe switch mod sounds interesting. ?
I'm planning to set the FV500L modding on youtube, but at the moment it's a little bit hectic :cool:
 

Tremonti

Fractal Fanatic
After waiting at least 2 coon's ages....I am done waiting on the FAS midi footcontroller. If the Liquid Foot does all that was described above then what is the big deal about the FAS controller anyways??? Maybe a little cheaper??? I don't know.....but I too am not waiting until the next ice age for something to emerge. Thanks for the LF info. :p
 

ossandust

Regular
My reply will be very biased, since I designed the Big Little Giant and I don't know much about the LiquidFoot. But I'm sure others will chime in to highlight the LF, the more info you get the better.
You can download the LG-X user manual to find out all details, I'll just add a comparison with the LF feature list posted by Voes:

> LF: You can choose between 6 PC or 12 PC. and every PC can be also a IA
> standard 16 IA's x 4pages. and with the new firmware pushing an IA more than 1s or 2s calls another IA!

LG-X : 250 banks of 13 switches. Each switch can be any type in each bank (preset, IA, momentary, trigger)
Standard : 13 presets per bank. "Extended bank" mode : 5 presets + (3x 8) presets in 3 sub-banks, single click access to each sub-bank through 2 dedicated select switches. (results for instance in 5 presets + 24 IA's per bank)
Optionally, a single switch can contain any number of presets, you can scroll through them sequentially.

> LF: each IA can send 20 ON and 20 OFF commands and that can be everything that's possible in MIDI:

LG-X : no maximum limit on number of commands per preset, only a limit on total amount of memory used. Any MIDI command plus a number of "Gordius specific" commands for special features. IA's have on/off message streams, presets or momentary switches can send messages on depress and on release.

> LF : Axe-fx tuner

LG-X : Only recently added. It's not yet documented in the manual.

> LF : Autoload of axe-fx presets (name and on/off settings IA)

LG-X : doesn't autoload Axe settings, and will probably not do it in the near future (LG-X is generally targeting multi-device control, with Axe settings being only a part of each preset setup)

> LF : Grouping of IA: if you have 3 IA's (for instance 3 delays) you can group them and if you push one, the other 2 will go in
> off-status

LG-X : same.

> LF : 4 expression pedal inputs. I rebuild my FV-500 with a toe-switch and now I can change my expression pedal
> from external1 (wah) to external8 (vol, pitch...) in my axe-fx

LG-X : 4 expr.pedal inputs. Customizable pedal transmission curve (linear, log, anti-log, user-drawn curves,...)
Possibility to create a "virtual toe-switch" and/or "virtual heel-switch" : preset can be selected when you reach the end of the pedal range, so any expr.pedal without physical switch can be used.

> LF : Cloning. great feature if you have a IA on another page. on page 1 you have drive and on page 2 also.
> if you change the state of drive on page 1 it will also change on page 2

LG-X : that's indeed standard behavior. IA state is stored independent from the switch(es) or bank(s) the IA is linked to.

> LF : You can trigger another IA

LG-X. (Not sure what that means) The LG-X setup introduces an extra level of "patches" vs "presets". Apparently confusing at the start, but in the end it enables you to combine several patch setups and pedal setups into one preset, or reuse preprogrammed patches in different presets. (mostly interesting when using it as a multi-device controller)

> LF : Sysex-commands: you can store and send more than 200 sysex-command lines

LG-X : Same as above : sysex is just one of the supported messages. Length only limited by total amount of memory.

> LF : And last but not least, great customerservice

LG-X : can't comment on that one... ;-)

> LF : In fact, I just can't imagine what the LF can't do

Just a few possible things I can think of - again, I'm sure others will be able to create a similar list of features that the LF has and the LG-X doesn't (it would be sad if both controllers would be a clone of each other...)

- graphical OLED display. Allows for a menu based setup on the unit itself. And for displaying set lists.
- USB connection. Allows for easy firmware/setup downloads. Also turns the LG-X into a standard MIDI-USB interface for connecting other MIDI stuff to your PC (Win,Mac,Linux)
- special footswitches. As reliable as Carling but more silent.
- compact. But you have to live with the strange switch layout. Many will prefer the classical grid layout which the LG-X doesn't have.
- accepts any cheap MIDI footcontroller as "slave". The slave (which sends PC or CC only) can trigger whatever complex LG-X preset.
- the rotary knob can be used as extra continuous MIDI controller for adjustment of any programmable parameter.

And some features which probably are irrelevant to many :
* use as metronome. Can send MIDI Clock with programmable BPM. Or show the BPM of incoming MIDI Clock on the display and LEDs. Plus taptempo functionality (change the metronome speed by tapping a switch)
* use as MIDI monitor (show list of incoming MIDI messages on the display)
* 2 MIDI IN/OUTs with programmable filter functionality.
* advanced programming options, like the use of data variables or MIDI channel variables... (see manual)
* use as keypad (enter a 3-digit PC number in order to directly select any of the 384 Axe presets)
* Gordius specific commands can be added to the message stream, for things like programmable delays, CC sweeps, loops, randomizing, etc.

But that's enough bragging in 1 message... sorry, I didn't intend this to become such a lengthy post.
 

voes

Fractal Fanatic
ossandust said:
* 2 MIDI IN/OUTs with programmable filter functionality.
Xavier, does this mean that the LG-X acts as a MIDI-interface and MIDI-merger?
In other words you can use the LG-X as footcontroller and the Axe-editor at the same time and only with the LG-X as midi-interface to the computer?
 

ossandust

Regular
voes said:
ossandust said:
* 2 MIDI IN/OUTs with programmable filter functionality.
Xavier, does this mean that the LG-X acts as a MIDI-interface and MIDI-merger?
In other words you can use the LG-X as footcontroller and the Axe-editor at the same time and only with the LG-X as midi-interface to the computer?
The short answer is yes. You need a USB cable between LG-X and PC, and 2 MIDI cables between LG-X and Axe-FX.

There are some possible issues, but it should work :

1. The Axe-FX uses huge sysex messages: over 1MB in one single sysex. I have seen that the standard WinXP MIDI driver (which the LG-X uses) has difficulties to cope with this. This means that sending such a sysex file with a standard application like MIDI-OX over USB results in corrupted data. I have added a small utility to ControlCenter (the LG-X PC editor) which allows to send any sysex file to the LG-X MIDI OUT port over USB. This utility can cope with the large Axe files, it has been tested.

2. Typically you would want to use both Axe-EDIT and ControlCenter for editing both Axe setup and LG-X setup at the same time, and download setups to the units for immediate testing. This means that you need 1 big "MIDI loop" between Axe, LG-X, and both PC applications. In order to obtain this,
- you need to use Midi Yoke (on Windows) as "virtual patch bay". You probably know this.
- both applications need to pass all MIDI messages through from IN to OUT. I recently tested this, and apparently the current version of Axe-Edit does not yet forward incoming MIDI messages to its output. So for the moment you can use only 1 application at the same time (and therefore no need to use MidiYoke, both applications can connect directly to the LG-X USB port)
 

ossandust

Regular
voes said:
ossandust said:
* 2 MIDI IN/OUTs with programmable filter functionality.
Xavier, does this mean that the LG-X acts as a MIDI-interface and MIDI-merger?
In other words you can use the LG-X as footcontroller and the Axe-editor at the same time and only with the LG-X as midi-interface to the computer?
Sorry, forgot to answer the second part (MIDI merger) :
yes, the LG(-X) is acting as a standard MIDI merger : both MIDI IN's are merged together with the LG-generated messages, and all are sent to both MIDI OUT ports. Within this MIDI stream, you can do some filtering, like specify which MIDI channel are sent to MIDI OUT1, and which to MIDI OUT 2.
 

holdenhinkle

Inspired
Thank you everyone for your comments. And thank you Xavier to chiming in! Great to hear from the source!

Xavier, a few of questions for you:

1) I read somewhere that you were developing a phantom powered cable to be used with the Axe Fx. Have you finished it? If not, will you finish it soon?

2) It it easy to read the patch names when the Gordius is on the floor and you're standing above it? I read somewhere that the font size is adjustable.

3) Are you planning on coming out with an editor for the Mac? If not, is running the editor on a Mac in Windows using Parallels an option?

4) Lastly, when fractal finally releases their foot pedal, is there a way they can block you and other pedal companies from incorporating the same new features as they come out? It's great to see that you and Liquid Foot implemented the tuner so quickly.

Thanks again for your comments.

Btw, I love your octave design. I can see no disadvantages to using it over a more standard design. It's very unique and it looks real cool, like something I might see on Dr Who, or something from the Synclavier era.
 

ossandust

Regular
holdenhinkle said:
1) I read somewhere that you were developing a phantom powered cable to be used with the Axe Fx. Have you finished it? If not, will you finish it soon?
It's available here : http://www.rocketmusic.net/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=2527
holdenhinkle said:
2) It it easy to read the patch names when the Gordius is on the floor and you're standing above it? I read somewhere that the font size is adjustable.
There are several display modes, with different font sizes. You'd better ask this to actual Gordius users, who have been using the floorboard in a real live situation (unfortunately I only use the LG in my basement during developing and testing...) All I'd like to underline is that the OLED display quality is not to be compared with a standard LCD. You can more or less see this here (despite the blurry video quality, actual display is much sharper) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vza-aiGnn4c
holdenhinkle said:
3) Are you planning on coming out with an editor for the Mac? If not, is running the editor on a Mac in Windows using Parallels an option?
I am planning a Mac version but I stopped promising this to users, since I can't give a release date. Might take another few months. I didn't consider this highest priority, because indeed ControlCenter is running fine on Mac using Parallels, several users do it this way today.
holdenhinkle said:
4) Lastly, when fractal finally releases their foot pedal, is there a way they can block you and other pedal companies from incorporating the same new features as they come out? It's great to see that you and Liquid Foot implemented the tuner so quickly.
If it's about Axe-FX specific features: yes, Fractal can change the interfacing (MIDI message format) whenever they feel like doing so, and I will be the last to complain about that. I also don't mind emphasizing to every interested customer that the Fractal floorboard will probably be the best match if you need a dedicated Axe-FX floor controller. I don't intend to target the Axe-FX specifically with our designs, tuner display was just a "frequently asked for" feature.
 

Sebastian

Forum Addict
Thanks for your input and the excellent comparision, Xavier. :D
That came in time. I'm still making up my mind what controller to get and what features/layout/size I need.
It'll be a decision between Fractal Audio and Gordius.
I love the FAS customer support and we can be sure that their controller will probably fit perfectly the Axe-Fx and its further development.
But as there's no detailed information about its features, let alone the availability, I'm strongly leaning towards the LG.
 

MisterE

Forum Addict
I can vouch for Xavier's customer service.
It's top notch.
I've been very happy with the LG-X so far except for one thing.
I use the 2 direct banks for IA.
I have to program each IA in the dependency rules for each bank.
I would think it's obvious if you program IA's globally, you wouldn't have to program them in the dependancy rules as well.
Now, when I want to change the palce of an IA, I have to go over all my banks.
Where, if the unit would look if an IA is used(on or off) or not (not in the preset list), you just had to move it in the global bank.
Just my 2cts.
Otherwise, no complaints here.
I use it for songs & setlists and direct access.
One more thing I would like.
I'm really impressed with the use of variables but IMHO it would have been better if you could assign these to banks instead of presets.
You can use a bank for multiple songs but since there's enough memory for banks, you could use a bank for one song.
This way you could program variables for tempo, pitch and whatever you could think of for each song.
 

Reiep

Inspired
ossandust said:
> LF : Autoload of axe-fx presets (name and on/off settings IA)

LG-X : doesn't autoload Axe settings, and will probably not do it in the near future (LG-X is generally targeting multi-device control, with Axe settings being only a part of each preset setup)
Damn, that's what I was going to ask, if it was planned or not :cry:

That would be a great feature though (switchable, of course!) :mrgreen:
 
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