Life After Tone Match: Getting Back Tonal Characteristics

Well it’s inferior when I do it lol
It sounds good, it’s useable but you do miss something. At the end of the day Tonematch is a EQ curve not an impulse response.surely you can’t copywright an EQ curve.
 
I’ll perhaps do a really quick tutorial on it soon. Nothing to long or boring.

As for Tone matching IRs and considering that as crossing the line I disagree. Tone matching can be very good but it absolutely is not a replacement for what is the actual IR within the cab block. If anything it is The perfect way to try before you buy/demo some IRs. Also different approaches to tone matching have varied results.
Who wouldn’t put a few of queens coins down on some reasonably priced IR pack rather than a random lucky dip Tone Match.
Hey Harry Sound,

That would be great if you did it concise tutorial. Let me know if and when you do that. I’ve never actually use the white or pink noise before in my life, but I’ve been wondering when/how to apply it.

As far as the impulse response thing goes, I agree that post tone match of a third-party IR the original tone noticeably loses its detail and sounds different. You’re correct in that at the very least a tone matched IR gives enough of an idea to decide whether or not that particular impulse response might be appealing .
 
I'm perfectly comfortable creating my own patches for my own tones...

Occasionally, I see a video or audio clip here that I really like. I download and am disappointed... Has happened to me numerous times. I've never bothered with AxeChange because I really expect more of the same.

I can see that... And if I didn't already know what my sound was, I might investigate that more.

I haven't used it myself because I don't have a piezo equipped guitar which I think is key to getting a realistic acoustic sound from an electric... But I've heard others here do a fantastic job.


See my signature... I've been a big fan of late 80's Ibanez guitars for a long time, in particular the S Series (aka, Saber) from 87/88 - I have 10-12 of those. Mahogany body, HSS (the single coils are really stacked humbuckers).

I also like the Radius series from the same time. Basswood bodies, but similar otherwise.

I've also got an 86 Proline and an RS440 from the same year - the first Ibanez guitars with the original Edge tremolo.

And an '88 540 Power (like Satch is holding on the cover of Not of this Earth).

Many of these are custom, in that either I refinished and/or built from vintage parts.

I play through a pair of Xitone passive wedges powered by a Matrix GT800FX.
Yes, I know that disappointment with getting “fooled“ by a preset. I too prefer making my own tones and I’m actually very content with them. Since getting the AFX, I have been basically using third-party IRs, but last night I spent a few hours constructing an amp from stock cabs, which is kind of a copy of one that I did already. So it’s the Saber and Radius series that you love? Never had the pleasure of playing either. I picture the neck on those guitars to be kind of wide, but I don’t know if I’m correct.

It sounds like you have an incredible collection of guitars. I would love to just sit and play one of those Ibanez guitars for hours. It’s amazing when you find someboone who is so invested in a certain brand/line of guitars. That’s pretty cool that you’re making a “Frankenstein” guitars. I have switched bolt on necks and replaced pick ups, but that’s as far as I’ve ever gone.

How do you like the Matrix?
 
Yes, I know that disappointment with getting “fooled“ by a preset. I too prefer making my own tones and I’m actually very content with them. Since getting the AFX, I have been basically using third-party IRs, but last night I spent a few hours constructing an amp from stock cabs, which is kind of a copy of one that I did already. So it’s the Saber and Radius series that you love? Never had the pleasure of playing either. I picture the neck on those guitars to be kind of wide, but I don’t know if I’m correct.

It sounds like you have an incredible collection of guitars. I would love to just sit and play one of those Ibanez guitars for hours. It’s amazing when you find someboone who is so invested in a certain brand/line of guitars. That’s pretty cool that you’re making a “Frankenstein” guitars. I have switched bolt on necks and replaced pick ups, but that’s as far as I’ve ever gone.

How do you like the Matrix?

Here are a few... The first one is obviously not an Ibanez.

95244E56-0426-4377-8FCF-7C8DC6C001D0.jpeg 36E128B0-FC88-4534-B0D1-91FDFEE181B9.jpeg BF618F84-3C01-426F-9D04-D25E0754B0AF.jpeg 05B5BAD2-A099-43E5-A8B8-8709F92CC1F3.jpeg 5E8A7191-8464-41C2-A750-7C02270065F4.jpeg

I just realized I need to take some pics of the 2 Sabers I did first... Stripped the paint and hand varnished the mahogany!

This is the first one I ever did... Weeks of chemical stripping then sanding:

0D17B3CB-4D97-4B3A-AA77-09ECF5A44042.jpeg

Crappy pic, but this is the 2nd one. Stripped with a heat gun in less than an hour. Stained with ebony but it looks like walnut:

7BA8C78E-839A-48C2-B9F6-1B07C7E5C69F.jpeg

One of the wall o'guitars... The two above are included. Another crappy pic!

CE8DB857-9CCE-4DAD-B581-F9DC82C36370.jpeg

This was my main guitar for years before I started building the collection. I really should take it out of the case and give it some love...

E73ADCBF-757B-49F5-9C0B-4239BAA2BF9D.jpeg

The Wizard necks (Radius doesn't come with that, but it's what I put on it) is thin and flat... Not really wide.

The Matrix is great... Loud, light weight, sounds excellent.
 
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Sorry to rain on this parade, but don't you agree that Tone Matching a 3rd party IR constitutes illegally sharing that IR?
YES, in the sense that you’re tone matching an ACTUAL 3rd party IR.

NO, I’m the sense that once the tone is matched it undoubtedly loses distinguishable detail, rendering it unrecognizable. I try to see both perspectives. Regardless, rules are in place for a reason. One of my favorite places to shop for IRs houses some great people and I would never want to do ANYTHING to take away what they have built. Plus, I have a great motivation to share my presets with the community, so using third-party IRs are not my future. It doesn’t matter because I love a challenge When left with fewer options.
 
Here are a few... The first one is obviously not an Ibanez.

View attachment 48014 View attachment 48015 View attachment 48016 View attachment 48017 View attachment 48018

I just realized I need to take some pics of the 2 Sabers I did first... Stripped the paint and hand varnished the mahogany!

This is the first one I ever did... Weeks of chemical stripping then sanding:

View attachment 48019

Crappy pic, but this is the 2nd one. Stripped with a heat gun in less than an hour. Stained with ebony but it looks like walnut:

View attachment 48022

One of the wall o'guitars... The two above are included. Another crappy pic!

View attachment 48020

This was my main guitar for years before I started building the collection. I really should take it out of the case and give it some love...

View attachment 48021

The Wizard necks (Radius doesn't come with that, but it's what I put on it) is thin and flat... Not really wide.

The Matrix is great... Loud, light weight, sounds excellent.
I just scrolled through your catalog of guitars and I am very eager to comment on them, and ask a question here and there. You are a very fortunate man, and being that we are 3 hours apart I will definitely tried to comment tomorrow, which is actually today by May. Great collection though. You must love playing those things. I’m glad the Matrix suits you well. I am several hundred dollars short of a Matrix, so I have the Friedman ASM 12. Some people hate that amp but I don’t. I consistently get a killer tone out of that thing. God bless with your collection. Music is the best in the world.
 
Sorry to rain on this parade, but don't you agree that Tone Matching a 3rd party IR constitutes illegally sharing that IR?

See this is a strange argument for people like us to have. I mean the AXE FX itself is recreating amps,cabinets,microphones, drive pedals, stomp boxes etc.The people who make the IRS are cloning a cabinet, speakers and microphones. Where does the line begin and where does it stop?
 
Hi,

How are you?

I contacted 3 Sigma Audio (I believe Jason responded) yesterday due to the nature of this thread. Being that I have purchased the majority of my impulse responses from them, I wanted to ask how they felt about uploading a tone matched preset with their IRs to Axe-Change. As it turns out, they’re actually okay with it. They just don’t want a user to upload a preset with an ACTUAL IR that people can use as their own. The thought is that if you tone match an impulse response, you’re still cloning that same IR. However, tone matching for some reason seems to leave out some information and does not sound EXACTLEY like the original tone. It’s got the same flavor, but it lacks in definition. Please understand that this is not an attempt to be “defiant” or disrespectful in any way. I truly LOVE working for hours on my AXF, and personally,
Sorry to rain on this parade, but don't you agree that Tone Matching a 3rd party IR constitutes illegally sharing that IR?
I think that this forum is an excellent resource, but overall, it would just be great to be able to expand upon your guitar tone(s).


Thank you for taking the time to read this.


Here is our correspondence:


“That’s good news. Thank you very much for the response. I’ll pass this by the FAS Administrator/Moderator. We may still prohibited from doing this, but I think the inquiry is worth it. Also, if we did upload a preset that contained a tone matched IR, we could then mention the source (which is you), as well as the specific pack in which it came from in the preset description.


Thanks again. If you have any concerns about what we have discussed, please feel free get in touch with me.


Sincerely,

Brian Greco


Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 6, 2018, at 5:56 AM, 3 Sigma Audio <contact@3sigmaaudio.com> wrote:


Hey Brian,


As long as our actual IRs aren't being uploaded then you are all good!


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018, 5:34 PM brian greco <brian.greco@live.com> wrote:


Hey Jason,


So I just purchased a few more IR packs from you the other day and I really enjoy working with them. I just wanted you guys to know that.


I actually have a question to ask you. I know I have brought up something very similar to what I’m about to discuss, but it’s not quite the same. If it is, then please forgive my poor memory.


There is a discussion on the AFX forum regarding tone matching and third-party IRs. We are not allowed to use third-party impulse responses on Axe-Change for good reason. However, due to loss of information or something, the tone matching process does not exactly replicate an original tone. My first attempts with tone matching, were using my own presets. Unfortunately, like many users, I could not get the original preset tone I had made. The finished product comes out dull and has less “soul” and grit. So, what I want to know is, if AFX users were to tone match presets with third-party IRs, which end up deviating from the sound of initial preset-and would not make the “real” IRs vulnerable to theft because the tone is different-is it OK to upload these presets to the Axe-Change?


Thanks again for your time, Jason.

Brian

Sent from my iPhone”
 
You know, I never actually thought about how far down the rabbit hole this whole thing goes. Technically, you’re absolutely right.

I literally just posted a reply to the administrator/moderator explaining that I contacted 3 Sigma Audio because the majority of the impulse responses I purchase are from them. Basically, the response I got back from 3 Sigma Audio was that they were okay with tone matching a preset with their IRs, as long the ACTUAL IR is not being shared. The argument is that tone matching an IR is the same as uploading the actual third-party IR itself. However, as I mentioned in my reply to the administrator is that there is a definite tonal difference do some loss of information. This results in a tone that has the same flavor, but loses some of the characteristics of the original tone.

As stated, 3 Sigma Audio sees nol ethical issues with this, so I think it was just worth a quick inquiry. I am obviously not going to go against the grain, because I value this forum too much. If we are still truly prohibited from tone matching an impulse response, then I’ll continue to do what I’m doing now, which is using everything stock.
 
I think your assertion that tonematching changes the definition of an IR may be based on your methodology and not the technology. There may be minor imperfections, but when I've tonematched IRs entirely in the box, you can't hear any difference.
 
You may be absolutely right. Perhaps there’s more to it then I know. However, I can’t deny my repeated experiences and the opinions of others at times. Also, there aren’t many options that I can see for tone matching a DI tone on the AXF.

I take my time constructing an amp that sounds as close to the original as I can possibly get, and then I tone match. However, I am really all about learning to get the best tones possible. I mean that. I am really enjoying my experience with the a AXF to the point where ours are flying by and I get to bed in the early morning hours.

If you have some knowledge that I don’t, I would be very appreciative if you could pass that knowledge on to me. The process is a fairly simple one. Beyond trying to get as close as you can to the desired tone and using playing methods, I’m not sure what else I could possibly do.

Thanks and I hope to hear back from you regarding some things you do to get a better tone match.

Thanks very much.
Brian
 
Here are a few... The first one is obviously not an Ibanez.

View attachment 48014 View attachment 48015 View attachment 48016 View attachment 48017 View attachment 48018

I just realized I need to take some pics of the 2 Sabers I did first... Stripped the paint and hand varnished the mahogany!

This is the first one I ever did... Weeks of chemical stripping then sanding:

View attachment 48019

Crappy pic, but this is the 2nd one. Stripped with a heat gun in less than an hour. Stained with ebony but it looks like walnut:

View attachment 48022

One of the wall o'guitars... The two above are included. Another crappy pic!

View attachment 48020

This was my main guitar for years before I started building the collection. I really should take it out of the case and give it some love...

View attachment 48021

The Wizard necks (Radius doesn't come with that, but it's what I put on it) is thin and flat... Not really wide.

The Matrix is great... Loud, light weight, sounds excellent.
I love the yellow and black guitar. It’s wild. You did the art? How does it play? From looking at your pictures, there are so many of your guitars I would just love to pick up and play. I know if given the time I probably wouldn’t be able to pick a favorite because there are probably some subtle differences that would be difficult to distinguish, but I’m sure other guitars that have noticeable differences. If you were “forced” to pick one guitar from your collection as your favorite, which one would it be? Or could even answer that question? Lol
Thank you for taking the time to post all those pictures. Again, you’re a very fortunate man to have such a beautiful collection guitars...and the Matrix! It’s great that you love your craft so much.

Brian
 
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I love the yellow and black guitar. It’s wild. You did the art? How does it play? From looking at your pictures, there are so many of your guitars I would just love to pick up and play. I know if given the time I probably wouldn’t be able to pick a favorite because there are probably some subtle differences that would be difficult to distinguish, but I’m sure other guitars that have noticeable differences. If you were “forced” to pick one guitar from your collection as your favorite, which one would it be? Or could even answer that question? Lol
Thank you for taking the time to post all those pictures. Again, you’re a very fortunate man to have such a beautiful collection guitars...and the Matrix! It’s great that you love your craft so much.

Brian
The yellow and black is my take on the EVH "bumble bee" striped guitar... It started out as a stock 1987 S540 in Desert Sun Yellow. I think I paid about $350 on eBay (keep in mind that this era of is considered some of best Japanese made guitars ever, and this was top of the line Ibanez guitar!).

However, it was just too 80's for stage use, because DSY is practically neon. :)

Sooo... One day, I just said "screw it, why not?". Out comes the screw driver and some auto finishing masking tape (3 widths, don't remember what exactly I bought it for)... And a Google search for the EVH guitar so I could "sort of" replicate the pattern.

Along the way, I remembered I had a couple die cut window stickers from my band and thought I should try to incorporate those into the paint. I was able to fit the TMF logo over the input jack and the TooMuchFiction word mark that is normally underneath got moved to the side. I put those on before the stripes.

Once it was all masked I pulled out a can of cheap flat black paint, of which I applied 2 or 3 coats.

After letting the paint cure for a day or so, I removed all the masking and was surprised at how well it came out.

My son does auto body work and I had him apply a clear coat and buff it out to finish everything off. In the end, I actually think it looked cooler without the clear... ;)

I like the guitar, but it doesn't have the same mojo when playing it that some of the others do.

Here are a few pics along the way:
01B12FA3-8F4A-4239-B45F-51161C9D5FCE.jpeg

E96246D7-9F1F-4CDF-8EA4-A8023699C596.jpeg

544C6D87-810D-4CB1-827C-0D32FD091D29.jpeg
The guitars all do have different characters even though most are very close to identical in construction and pickups.

If I had to trim down my collection, I would be hard pressed to pick a favorite... But my main 3 guitars are the light and dark natural finished mahogany S540s and the tangerine sparkle R540. All 3 of those were not just refinish but compete builds from parts purchased separately on eBay.

The natural finished guitars sound better than any of the painted ones - I think the paint must affect the way the wood resonates. The factory clear coat can be pretty thick.

The tangerine was mostly finished by my son, but you also can't really tell that the body is covered in "ghost" TMF logos! Unfortunately, the flake hides them too much unless you are in the sun and know where to look.

Here are a few pics of that project:

E8363D6E-1655-42BF-A5D8-E559094C90D1.jpeg 005C4B29-A4E8-4C35-9000-D6CBB672DF5A.jpeg

EFBA5CEA-EC5E-4A05-BCD3-88D3DA478294.jpeg F1947939-E948-4F27-A938-23F677FAEF62.jpeg

16301E43-9DAB-400D-9CC9-4797F162F13E.jpeg 8A1013E9-F440-4A8C-8ADD-FE80BA15CC3D.jpeg B71E1434-54E2-45D2-AE2F-D5BE8542E399.jpeg

Edit:

My next project has been waiting a while since I started it. I found a 1987 S540 body in an HH config. Somebody stripped the finish from the back and sides but not top using a sander, and in doing so removed the bevel from the top edges... So, I'm going to make a gold top out of it. Gold top with cherry stained mahogany back and sides! Probably using the gold base that you can see in the tangerine pics above.

Edit 2:

I wanted to just say, these guitars are excellent value for the money. They retailed new for $1300-1500 in the late 80's. I've never paid more than $450 for one used with a hard case. People ask more... But if you are patient, you can find them. From 1987 to maybe 1993, I think these are excellent. The 87/88 have 3 mini toggle switches, later have a 5-way blade selector.
 
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The yellow and black is my take on the EVH "bumble bee" striped guitar... It started out as a stock 1987 S540 in Desert Sun Yellow. I think I paid about $350 on eBay (keep in mind that this era of is considered some of best Japanese made guitars ever, and this was top of the line Ibanez guitar!).

However, it was just too 80's for stage use, because DSY is practically neon. :)

Sooo... One day, I just said "screw it, why not?". Out comes the screw driver and some auto finishing masking tape (3 widths, don't remember what exactly I bought it for)... And a Google search for the EVH guitar so I could "sort of" replicate the pattern.

Along the way, I remembered I had a couple die cut window stickers from my band and thought I should try to incorporate those into the paint. I was able to fit the TMF logo over the input jack and the TooMuchFiction word mark that is normally underneath got moved to the side. I put those on before the stripes.

Once it was all masked I pulled out a can of cheap flat black paint, of which I applied 2 or 3 coats.

After letting the paint cure for a day or so, I removed all the masking and was surprised at how well it came out.

My son does auto body work and I had him apply a clear coat and buff it out to finish everything off. In the end, I actually think it looked cooler without the clear... ;)

I like the guitar, but it doesn't have the same mojo when playing it that some of the others do.

Here are a few pics along the way:
View attachment 48054

View attachment 48055

View attachment 48056
The guitars all do have different characters even though most are very close to identical in construction and pickups.

If I had to trim down my collection, I would be hard pressed to pick a favorite... But my main 3 guitars are the light and dark natural finished mahogany S540s and the tangerine sparkle R540. All 3 of those were not just refinish but compete builds from parts purchased separately on eBay.

The natural finished guitars sound better than any of the painted ones - I think the paint must affect the way the wood resonates. The factory clear coat can be pretty thick.

The tangerine was mostly finished by my son, but you also can't really tell that the body is covered in "ghost" TMF logos! Unfortunately, the flake hides them too much unless you are in the sun and know where to look.

Here are a few pics of that project:

View attachment 48058 View attachment 48059

View attachment 48060 View attachment 48061

View attachment 48062 View attachment 48063 View attachment 48064

Edit:

My next project has been waiting a while since I started it. I found a 1987 S540 body in an HH config. Somebody stripped the finish from the back and sides but not top using a sander, and in doing so removed the bevel from the top edges... So, I'm going to make a gold top out of it. Gold top with cherry stained mahogany back and sides! Probably using the gold base that you can see in the tangerine pics above.

Edit 2:

I wanted to just say, these guitars are excellent value for the money. They retailed new for $1300-1500 in the late 80's. I've never paid more than $450 for one used with a hard case. People ask more... But if you are patient, you can find them. From 1987 to maybe 1993, I think these are excellent. The 87/88 have 3 mini toggle switches, later have a 5-way blade selector.
Lol. We just shipped a Cloud guitar finished in candy tangerine. It’s an amazing finish. Even professionally-shot photographs don’t do justice to the coppery depth of that finish.

I love your bumblebee logo guitar. Great design and execution.
 
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Lol. We just shipped a Cloud guitar finished in candy tangerine. It’s an amazing finish. Even professionally-shot photographs don’t do justice to the copperyndepth of that finish.

I love your bumblebee logo guitar. Great design and execution.
Thanks!

Yes, that tangerine works great on guitars, cars and boats! :D It is awesome in outdoor gigs!

The base coat color and the flake color also contribute a lot... I would have had more flake but then the ghost logos would have been completely gone, and that took a LOT of work... Both applying the logos and masking around them as well as applying the pearl paint.
 
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