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Life After Tone Match: Getting Back Tonal Characteristics

Discussion in 'Axe-Fx II Tone Match' started by Brian Greco, Jun 30, 2018.

  1. Brian Greco

    Brian Greco
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    Hey everyone,

    So, I’ve been in the process of tone matching some of my presets so that I can post them on Axe-Change. I have to do this because I often use third-party impulse responses, and as you all know this is a no no.


    I recently posted a thread somewhere, but there were no responses.


    Here is the issue: I noticed that 10 out of 10 times after my tone match is complete, it sounds more dull, as if it’s lost some import tonal characteristics in the original preset. It’s pretty interesting when you A/B The original preset with the tone match preset.


    So, basically, I want to know if there is a way to bring back some of that “grit” and fullness-basically tonal characteristics-that you lose with distorted tones, post tone matching. I have of course been trying my best with EQ’ing and, to some extent, the exciter block.


    Unfortunately, I would imagine that once the tone matching process takes place, you can’t get back what you lost in your tone, whether it’s due to some EQ curve issue, compression or even a loss of information during the TM process.


    Why is this really important to me? Well, I’ve come up with some nice tones, which I want to share. However, they just don’t sound as good.


    I know that I can attempt to find a stock IR to take the place of a third-party one that I am using, but then it won’t be the same tone, even after read tweaking.


    As always, any suggestions are welcome.


    Thanks,

    Brian
     
  2. steadystate

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    The issues I have with tonematching usually are a result of the stem used for reference not having enough information. It may contain a couple of chords or a riff, but not every note and chord combination, and usually not enough for a great tonematch. I play only what is in the stem when matching, but a lot of info is still missing.

    The result is usually a few nasty narrowband peaks, especially when I play figures that are not similar to the stem after the match. I remove them with very narrow PEQ bands. I often then blend in the closest existing IR with some eq to smooth out the tonematch.

    I generally get excellent results when the reference source is comprehensive. When I tonematch cabs with white noise, the matches are indistinguishable from the original.
     
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  3. Billbill

    Billbill
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    How are you doing the tone match? What are you using for a reference signal?
     
  4. Moke

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    Your best bet is to post the preset (and a demo clip) and just provide the exact info on the commercial IR used. If someone likes the tone in the clip, then they can download it.

    If they have the cab, they can import it and they are good to go. If they don't, they can purchase the pack that it came in and the IR maker wins too.
     
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  5. Moke

    Moke
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    As for the 'Tone Matching' issue. If setup correctly, you should be able to "Live" 'Tone Match' any IR(s) in a Cab block perfectly? But I think that's still like sharing someone else's work???? Not really sure where the line is?

    I've avoided using and/or 'Tone Matching' any commercial IRs just to be safe?
     
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  6. unix-guy

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    I basically just said the same thing in another related thread by the OP...
     
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  7. HarrySound

    HarrySound
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    I have a preset up on axe change that I tone matched the IR I was using by using pink noise in Cubase.
    On a scale of 1-10 i’d Say it’s 8.5-9 the same as the original. I find I have to bump the tone match block up by 3db every time though.
     
  8. 200man

    200man
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    This thread is a good example of why I ‘wished” for the ability to limit the frequency range during the tone match process.
     
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  9. Brian Greco

    Brian Greco
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    Agreed. I wouldn’t want to get banished from Axe-Change because of this. Just curious, is there anyone at FA that can be contacted just to find out where that “line” is? If so, how would I contact them?
     
  10. Brian Greco

    Brian Greco
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    Do you think there’s a loss of sample rate info or a compression issue getting causing the less than optimal results? Also, may I ask how you add the white noise?
     
  11. unix-guy

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    It's not a Fractal question... It's a question for the IR creators.

    And it's not really a question... If your tone match is essentially recreating their work, you are breaking the law by distributing it.
     
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  12. Brian Greco

    Brian Greco
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    Thanks for asking. I started using a file from YouTube which had some nice clarity, but I think when transferring it to my DAW, it sounded less clear and dynamic. I think this has to be a CODEC issue. The result was so so. I have also tone matched my own tones and they loose some of the character as well. I just want to note that when I saw Cooper Carter tone Match one of his solos, it wasn’t bad, but had this kid of sound to it, like an off-axis mic or something.
     
  13. Brian Greco

    Brian Greco
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    I own Cubase as well. I’ve seen the options for white and pink noise. How would I implement that into the tone matching process.
    That’s actually an interesting point...
     
  14. Brian Greco

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    Hey Unix-Guy,

    Thanks for continuing to contribute. Everyone’s suggestions continue to help me to become better informed.

    Anyway, you mentioned that this not really a question for FAS, but a question for those who make impulse responses. You’re right, that’s why I checked in with the company that I purchase the most impose responses from. However, my inquiry here on the forum is actually beneficial to me, because I get a chance to see what other users are doing regarding this topic. It is a matter of learning. I think covering all your bases and collecting as much pertinent information as you can is a good way to research something, especially for what I wanted to know.

    Last night I began the the tedious process of trying to find stock cabs that have very similar tonal qualities to the 3rd party IR’s I used originally. I am very motivated to find replacements for the presets I have made because I really want to upload them and share them with everyone. I think that’s one of the coolest things. I used to do it often with Positive Grid. I am sure that many AXF user-including myself-get some sort of excitement or pleasure when downloading a preset that is actually usable for their taste(s).
     
  15. unix-guy

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    Personally, I've never downloaded a single preset from another user that worked for me at all.

    Maybe because I've only played original music for the last 30+ years, but tone matching somebody else has no appeal to me at all.

    I like the idea of tone matching to emulate acoustic guitar, etc, though.

    As a user of the Axe Fx for 5+ years and an active forum user, my experiences are that tone matches don't "age" well because they are "static" while the amp modeling is dynamic and changes frequently.
     
  16. Brian Greco

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    I definitely hear you on presets that don’t quite well for your taste. With all those presets though, you haven’t been able to find something with potential that appeals to you? Honestly, I haven’t downloaded more than a few presets. I just enjoy making my own and want to share them.

    To each his own. It’s about what you like.I think the prospect of “accurately” matching a tone that I have liked from a band/producer can be exciting. However, when there is too much of a difference, then the excitement diminishes along with the desire to use the tone match future. Again, for me, just another learning experience. Although, I may ask rudimentary questions, I have come along way as far as making certain tones in a short time with my AFX, and I’m proud of that.

    That’s very cool. How have you found the results as far as emulating acoustic guitars?

    In regard to your last paragraph, definitely see your logic.

    So, already know that you’re an avid AFX use so, I know you’re an avid ask affects user, but what kind of beer do you like to use? Meaning, do you have a favorite guitar that you find yourself gravitating towards? Do you play out of an amp (non powered speakers) or do you prefer the FRFR route?
     
  17. unix-guy

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    I'm perfectly comfortable creating my own patches for my own tones...

    Occasionally, I see a video or audio clip here that I really like. I download and am disappointed... Has happened to me numerous times. I've never bothered with AxeChange because I really expect more of the same.
    I can see that... And if I didn't already know what my sound was, I might investigate that more.
    I haven't used it myself because I don't have a piezo equipped guitar which I think is key to getting a realistic acoustic sound from an electric... But I've heard others here do a fantastic job.
    See my signature... I've been a big fan of late 80's Ibanez guitars for a long time, in particular the S Series (aka, Saber) from 87/88 - I have 10-12 of those. Mahogany body, HSS (the single coils are really stacked humbuckers).

    I also like the Radius series from the same time. Basswood bodies, but similar otherwise.

    I've also got an 86 Proline and an RS440 from the same year - the first Ibanez guitars with the original Edge tremolo.

    And an '88 540 Power (like Satch is holding on the cover of Not of this Earth).

    Many of these are custom, in that either I refinished and/or built from vintage parts.

    I play through a pair of Xitone passive wedges powered by a Matrix GT800FX.
     
  18. HarrySound

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    I’ll perhaps do a really quick tutorial on it soon. Nothing to long or boring.

    As for Tone matching IRs and considering that as crossing the line I disagree. Tone matching can be very good but it absolutely is not a replacement for what is the actual IR within the cab block. If anything it is The perfect way to try before you buy/demo some IRs. Also different approaches to tone matching have varied results.
    Who wouldn’t put a few of queens coins down on some reasonably priced IR pack rather than a random lucky dip Tone Match.
     
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  19. unix-guy

    unix-guy
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    If your tone match is of a preset you create, and the only thing you are matching is the Cab block, then (if you do it right) you have just created a clone of the original IR.
     
  20. HarrySound

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    An inferior clone.
     

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