LF HF Resonance Settings: FM3 to Separate Power Amp to Traditional Guitar Cab

Mateo11

Mateo11

Inspired
Got my FM3 today and its AWESOME but I am confused on what settings should be changed on the FM3 when running into a separate power amp (for example SD170 or Fryette PS-2) into a traditional guitar cab. I know that the CAB BLOCK needs to be disabled and POWER AMP modelling is to remain on....my questions are regarding the more advanced specific settings on the FM3.

I have seen posted in this forum (regarding the AxeFX III) that you should do the following:
Amp Block: Speaker tab: turn off both HF and LF Resonance
Amp Block: Speaker Drive tab: set Speaker Drive, Compression, and Compliance to 0

I have also seen on TGP a post where Cliff responded to:
Change OUTPUT MODE in the ADVANCED settings in the AMP BLOCK from FRFR to SS PWR AMP + CAB.

Where I am confused is there are numerous LF and HF RESONANCE parameters in the AMP BLOCK Speaker settings (LF RESONANCE FREQ, LF RESONANCE Q, LF RESONANCE, HF RESONANCE FREQ, HF RESONANCE, HF SLOPE). I do not see a way to turn these off (only turn them down) and unsure which ones should be turned down.

Also the instructions by Cliff on TGP seemed to me to suggest if you change the OUTPUT MODE in the ADVANCED settings in the AMP BLOCK from FRFR to SS PWR AMP + CAB then this would essentially take care of all the above BUT I noticed if I do this the LF & HF settings do not change and are still active in the AMP BLOCK/SPEAKER PAGE.

I can tell a difference when adjusting parameters within the LF & HF Resonance settings but there is no audible difference at all when just changing from FRFR to SS PWR AMP + CAB in the ADVANCED settings in the AMP BLOCK.

The FM3 manual only suggests to change in the AMP BLOCK from FRFR to SS PWR AMP + CAB when using a neutral power amp and traditional cab....but as mentioned above there is no audible difference when doing that and all the LF HF Resonance remain active in the Speaker settings.

Anyone out there know the exact settings that should be turned on, off or down or switched when using

Sorry this is so long but on a total side note my FM3 was delivered today and was supposed to be delivery only with a signature....the UPS guy just dropped it off on the porch and left. Luckily I was home and heard something outside. I live in a good neighborhood but still WTH?

Thanks guys!
 
Just curious where you heard that you're supposed to leave Power Amp modeling on? I turn mine off in the Global Setting when I use it with the Powerstage
 
bigfoamfinger said:
Just curious where you heard that you're supposed to leave Power Amp modeling on? I turn mine off in the Global Setting when I use it with the Powerstage
Click to expand...

It says in the manual it's personal preference. It suggests turning power amp modeling off if going to a tube power amp or something with coloration, but some people still prefer to have it on.
 
bigfoamfinger said:
Just curious where you heard that you're supposed to leave Power Amp modeling on? I turn mine off in the Global Setting when I use it with the Powerstage
Click to expand...

If you are going into a nuetral power amp like a PowerStage or a PS-2 you would want the power amp modeling on since the nuetral power amp is just in essence amplifying the sound. If you are running it into the FX return of a regular guitar tube amp you would turn it off since the power amp would add its own color to the tone. It’s listed in the manual.
 
I run my output into the return of an Egnater Tweaker tube amp, but after testing quite a bit, have found I prefer the tones with the power amp ON. I find the added color, however subtle, brings out the best in most of the amps I've played. I know others have found the same. I think it can vary depending on the amp you're using and the design of it's power section.

Also, consider that the volume you're playing may also have an impact on whether you prefer power amp modeling on or off. Bottom line, there are no hard fast rules on this, which is exactly what Cliff indicates in the manual:

"This setup uses a “non-neutral” power amp, which
contributes its own coloration and dynamic feel to
the overall sound. Modeling these same power amp
characteristics in the amp block of the FM3 would
therefore be redundant, so you will want to disable
power amp modeling. Some power amps, however, are
more subtle, and some players like to leave power amp
modeling in the FM3 turned on, even though their amp
has its own coloration and feel. Try it both ways and let
your ears be your guide."
 
Thanks for the replies so far guys but can anyone answer the actual questions I had in my initial post? Settings for LF HF Resonance ...Output Mode etc etc
 
Mateo11 said:
I have seen posted in this forum (regarding the AxeFX III) that you should do the following:
Amp Block: Speaker tab: turn off both HF and LF Resonance
Amp Block: Speaker Drive tab: set Speaker Drive, Compression, and Compliance to 0
Click to expand...
Where did you see that?


Mateo11 said:
Where I am confused is there are numerous LF and HF RESONANCE parameters in the AMP BLOCK Speaker settings (LF RESONANCE FREQ, LF RESONANCE Q, LF RESONANCE, HF RESONANCE FREQ, HF RESONANCE, HF SLOPE). I do not see a way to turn these off (only turn them down) and unsure which ones should be turned down.
Click to expand...
Leave them at their default settings. These parameters are how the FM3 Amp block reacts to the load that a speaker would place on a real amp. They're part of the tone. And if you happen to have power amp modeling disabled, all those settings are disabled too.

Sometime down the road, when you have time to experiment with those parameters and hear what they do — then you can think about tweaking them. :)
 
Rex said:
Where did you see that?



Leave them at their default settings. These parameters are how the FM3 Amp block reacts to the load that a speaker would place on a real amp. They're part of the tone. And if you happen to have power amp modeling disabled, all those settings are disabled too.

Sometime down the road, when you have time to experiment with those parameters and hear what they do — then you can think about tweaking them. :)
Click to expand...

Thats kinda why you want to disable them right? If you have a separate power amp (for example the Fryette PS-2) then that separate power amp AND the FM3 are BOTH reacting to the load on the speaker. The PS-2 actually physically doing it as a physical power amp AND the FM3 digitally emulating and imprinting it as well. Doubling up so to speak.

Here is the one from this forum:
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/axe-fx-iii-and-power-station-2.160152/

Here it is way more in depth at TGP:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/axe-fx-iii-and-power-station-2.2136319/

I cant find the thread at the moment where Cliff replied to use the OUTPUT MODE in the ADVANCED settings in the AMP BLOCK from FRFR to SS PWR AMP + CAB.....but as I mentioned before I can’t hear any audible difference at any volume engaging that setting.
 
Mateo11 said:
Thats kinda why you want to disable them right? If you have a separate power amp (for example the Fryette PS-2) then that separate power amp AND the FM3 are BOTH reacting to the load on the speaker. The PS-2 actually physically doing it as a physical power amp AND the FM3 digitally emulating and imprinting it as well. Doubling up so to speak.
Click to expand...
Right. But it depends on how hard you’re pushing that treat power amp. If that power amp isn’t being worked hard, you might find that the FM3’s power amp sim is just the ticket. If not, you can disable the power amp sim altogether, and all those parameters won’t do anything anyway.

You can “turn off” HF and LF Resonance by setting them to zero.

Bottom line: do what your ears like best. ;)

Also, don’t sweat Output Mode. Its effect s subtle at best. Go with Cliff’s recommendation, or... do what you like best. ;)
 
Mateo11 said:
Thats kinda why you want to disable them right? If you have a separate power amp (for example the Fryette PS-2) then that separate power amp AND the FM3 are BOTH reacting to the load on the speaker. The PS-2 actually physically doing it as a physical power amp AND the FM3 digitally emulating and imprinting it as well. Doubling up so to speak.

Here is the one from this forum:
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/axe-fx-iii-and-power-station-2.160152/

Here it is way more in depth at TGP:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/axe-fx-iii-and-power-station-2.2136319/

I cant find the thread at the moment where Cliff replied to use the OUTPUT MODE in the ADVANCED settings in the AMP BLOCK from FRFR to SS PWR AMP + CAB.....but as I mentioned before I can’t hear any audible difference at any volume engaging that setting.
Click to expand...
If you're using a transparent tube power amp like the PS-2, that's correct. To do so just select "resistive load" as the impedance curve and you're good to go. (You might want to also turn off speaker drive, speaker comp and speaker compliance)

If you use a solid state power amp like the SD powerstage, all you need to do is set the output mode to "SS PA + Cab", select an impedance curve similar to that of your cab and tweak speaker comp/compliance to taste.

PS: the effect of the output mode setting is hearable only if you're using a good amount of speaker compression
 
DLC86 said:
If you're using a transparent tube power amp like the PS-2, that's correct. To do so just select "resistive load" as the impedance curve and you're good to go. (You might want to also turn off speaker drive, speaker comp and speaker compliance)

If you use a solid state power amp like the SD powerstage, all you need to do is set the output mode to "SS PA + Cab", select an impedance curve similar to that of your cab and tweak speaker comp/compliance to taste.

PS: the effect of the output mode setting is hearable only if you're using a good amount of speaker compression
Click to expand...
yek said:
https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/...tions_and_levels#Power_amp_and_guitar_speaker
Click to expand...

Based off the WIKI link by Yek it is recommended when using the AXE3/FM3 with the PS-2 "to set Speaker Impedance Curve to "Resistive Load" but if you read POST #25 by member Aquinas over at TGP https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/axe-fx-iii-and-power-station-2.2136319/page-2 he makes a good case for why you wouldn't actually do this. His assertion is when using the PS-2 with a regular guitar tube amp the PS-2 being a reactive load is already duplicating the speaker curve. This is not a problem for the PS-2 since it is designed exactly for that specifically. Seems to make sense since you can't disable speaker impedence on a regular tube amp running into a PS-2. When I think about it I don't see how setting the "Speaker Impedence Curve to Resistive Load" would even matter with the PS-2. It is designed to handle it if it is turned on (like it would be naturally with a regular tube amp) and I would imagine if turned off (in a digital modeller) it is one less thing for the PS-2 to handle. Just to be clear I am not in any way challenging either way just trying to better comprehend and understand.

I wish Fractal would have more global parameters in the unit for accommodating different setups. Even for a guy like me who kinda understands a little bit about this stuff it still gets confusing. A lot of posts will reference when using a "tube amp" do A,B or C but that can mean going direct into the FX return of a regular guitar amp or it may also mean direct into the Fryette PS-2 (which is technically a tube amp but designed as a neutral power amp). It doesn't help either that setting the speaker impedance curve to "resistive load" is in a bit of contrast to running into the PS-2 which is a "reactive load"....although this may just be semantics at this point?

It can get even more confusing when using the power amp of say a BluGuitar Amp1. It is technically a solid state power amp BUT has a nanotube in the design for the feel/response of a tube amp. If you are connecting into the FX return of the AMP1 would you then adjust the recommended WIKI/Fractal settings like a regular guitar tube amp or would you follow the recommended settings for a solid state power amp (which the AMP1 is technically) or would you follow the recommended settings similar to the PS-2 since it has a tube in the power amp (but still technically is solid state)? Would you also in this instance turn off the power amp modelling in the FM3 like you would with a typical guitar amp?

Yes, we can always use our ears and let that be our guide but there are a lot of parameters in play that can get overwhelming. I like many choose Fractal because it is the ultimate pinnacle of amp modelling. You buy Fractal imo if you want 100% true accuracy and I know every block in the AXE3/FM3 delivers on that so it kinda bugs me to know that when using a PS-2 or AMP1 or SS170 I may unknowingly have some parameters not set as they should be resulting in a standard that is below the integrity of the unit itself.

Maybe more Global Parameters in the Advanced/OUTPUT MODE block like the SS PWR AMP + CAB could be beneficial. Like a PS-2 + CAB, FX RETURN + CAB, FX RETURN SS + CAB ......when selected all the parameters are automatically adjusted to Fractals standards. I dunno just a thought.

I see a ton of misinformation & confusion on forums when using different setups. For some guys close enough is good enough but I think that is better left to the guys who use the Helix ha.

Anyway long enough post. I am going to mess around some more with the FM3 today running it through the FX return of the AMP1 and try out different settings. I have the PS-2 coming on Monday so I will do the same with that unit when I get it. I am just anal about setting things up as they should be (as Fractal would) and unknowingly having a parameter set incorrectly with a particular setup drives me nuts....aaargh.
 
One more thing....@Yek I see your response to the above referenced link at TGP with Aquinas Post#25 #26 and I follow your logic but would't this be the exact same case if you were using a regular tube amp into the PS-2? You can't disable any power amp parameters with a tube amp into the PS-2 so why would it be needed for a digital amp? Thanks!
 
Mateo11 said:
Based off the WIKI link by Yek it is recommended when using the AXE3/FM3 with the PS-2 "to set Speaker Impedance Curve to "Resistive Load" but if you read POST #25 by member Aquinas over at TGP https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/axe-fx-iii-and-power-station-2.2136319/page-2 he makes a good case for why you wouldn't actually do this. His assertion is when using the PS-2 with a regular guitar tube amp the PS-2 being a reactive load is already duplicating the speaker curve. This is not a problem for the PS-2 since it is designed exactly for that specifically. Seems to make sense since you can't disable speaker impedence on a regular tube amp running into a PS-2. When I think about it I don't see how setting the "Speaker Impedence Curve to Resistive Load" would even matter with the PS-2. It is designed to handle it if it is turned on (like it would be naturally with a regular tube amp) and I would imagine if turned off (in a digital modeller) it is one less thing for the PS-2 to handle. Just to be clear I am not in any way challenging either way just trying to better comprehend and understand.

I wish Fractal would have more global parameters in the unit for accommodating different setups. Even for a guy like me who kinda understands a little bit about this stuff it still gets confusing. A lot of posts will reference when using a "tube amp" do A,B or C but that can mean going direct into the FX return of a regular guitar amp or it may also mean direct into the Fryette PS-2 (which is technically a tube amp but designed as a neutral power amp). It doesn't help either that setting the speaker impedance curve to "resistive load" is in a bit of contrast to running into the PS-2 which is a "reactive load"....although this may just be semantics at this point?

It can get even more confusing when using the power amp of say a BluGuitar Amp1. It is technically a solid state power amp BUT has a nanotube in the design for the feel/response of a tube amp. If you are connecting into the FX return of the AMP1 would you then adjust the recommended WIKI/Fractal settings like a regular guitar tube amp or would you follow the recommended settings for a solid state power amp (which the AMP1 is technically) or would you follow the recommended settings similar to the PS-2 since it has a tube in the power amp (but still technically is solid state)? Would you also in this instance turn off the power amp modelling in the FM3 like you would with a typical guitar amp?

Yes, we can always use our ears and let that be our guide but there are a lot of parameters in play that can get overwhelming. I like many choose Fractal because it is the ultimate pinnacle of amp modelling. You buy Fractal imo if you want 100% true accuracy and I know every block in the AXE3/FM3 delivers on that so it kinda bugs me to know that when using a PS-2 or AMP1 or SS170 I may unknowingly have some parameters not set as they should be resulting in a standard that is below the integrity of the unit itself.

Maybe more Global Parameters in the Advanced/OUTPUT MODE block like the SS PWR AMP + CAB could be beneficial. Like a PS-2 + CAB, FX RETURN + CAB, FX RETURN SS + CAB ......when selected all the parameters are automatically adjusted to Fractals standards. I dunno just a thought.

I see a ton of misinformation & confusion on forums when using different setups. For some guys close enough is good enough but I think that is better left to the guys who use the Helix ha.

Anyway long enough post. I am going to mess around some more with the FM3 today running it through the FX return of the AMP1 and try out different settings. I have the PS-2 coming on Monday so I will do the same with that unit when I get it. I am just anal about setting things up as they should be (as Fractal would) and unknowingly having a parameter set incorrectly with a particular setup drives me nuts....aaargh.
Click to expand...
I assumed the PS2 was just a normal tube power amp when its reactive load is not used, but some posts in that TGP thread seem to suggest otherwise.
I don't know how the PS2 is designed internally but at first glance that doesn't make much sense to me. I mean, is there a part of its circuit that compensates for the impedance curve of the reactive load so that the impedance curve of the cab is not redundant?
Seems a pretty cumbersome design if that's the case, but maybe it's been done this way for a reason.. I don't know
 
DLC86 said:
I assumed the PS2 was just a normal tube power amp when its reactive load is not used, but some posts in that TGP thread seem to suggest otherwise.
I don't know how the PS2 is designed internally but at first glance that doesn't make much sense to me. I mean, is there a part of its circuit that compensates for the impedance curve of the reactive load so that the impedance curve of the cab is not redundant?
Seems a pretty cumbersome design if that's the case, but maybe it's been done this way for a reason.. I don't know
Click to expand...

Thats actually a very good point and maybe the answer right there. I didn't think of it in that way as far as when not using the reactive load part of the PS2 and using only the Line In then it does not compensate for the impedance curve. That may be where the disconnect is coming from.
 
Theories etc. aside, I've had the best results with the PS2 with power amp modeling disabled and speaker impedance curve set to Resistive Load (which disables LF/HF Resonance). I always use the Line In port on the PS2.
 
I think the best you're going to get is Fryette's reply here (ignore his second paragraph):
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...-power-station-2.2136319/page-5#post-30338802

The PS-2 is described as somewhat of an in-between device. It's more linear than a usual tube amp to accommodate for tube-amps or modelers with already existing reactive load interactions, but as it's driven it starts imparting its own reactive load interactions with the speaker it's driving as well. You can set the Axe-Fx's impedance curve to Resistive, and use the PS-2's Presence and Depth knobs to de-linearize it at lower volumes, and back it off as necessary as you drive the it harder. Or, you can do it on the Axe-Fx side and lower its modeled impedance humps as you turn up the PS-2.

Since the PS-2's characteristic changes depending on how hard you drive it, the Axe-Fx can't have some special built-in setting for it. It can't know how you're setting up your PS-2. You're just going to have to listen and adjust.
 
Sorry, quick question. This thread has confused me a bit.

I use the PowerStage 200 with a custom preset. Out 1 goes to FOH (with the cab block) and Out 2 goes to my powerstage into my cabinet (no cab block).

Am I supposed to set it to SS PWR AMP + CAB?

Wouldn't that affect Out 1 which goes to FOH?
 
joafink2 said:
Sorry, quick question. This thread has confused me a bit.

I use the PowerStage 200 with a custom preset. Out 1 goes to FOH (with the cab block) and Out 2 goes to my powerstage into my cabinet (no cab block).

Am I supposed to set it to SS PWR AMP + CAB?

Wouldn't that affect Out 1 which goes to FOH?
Click to expand...
"Stick to the "FRFR" setting when simultaneously using FRFR monitoring / direct-to-FOH and a solid-state power amp and conventional guitar cab on stage."
https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/...levels#Optimize_the_Amp_block.27s_Output_Mode
 
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