Least compromising FRFR option (CLR, FR212, etc.) vs. real cab (mesa recto 2x12)

Tiger1016

Inspired
Hello all. First post here as I am just now venturing into the Axe-Fx land. I have done a lot of research, and my head is spinning trying to figure out what type of speaker/cab solution will be the best fit for me. I would really like to go the FRFR route (FR212, CLR, etc.), but I am concerned that it is going to involve to many compromises/challenges that might not make them the most ideal solution for me. Does anyone have any other FRFR options that I might want to consider, or is either the FR212 or CLR going to be the best compromise for a big amp in the room feeling, that is capable of full range audio playback, with good low volume performance, that is relatively easy to dial in decent patches for, which can also easily translate to being decent with headphones, and is a portable all in one solution.
 
Hello all. First post here as I am just now venturing into the Axe-Fx land. I have done a lot of research, and my head is spinning trying to figure out what type of speaker/cab solution will be the best fit for me. I would really like to go the FRFR route (FR212, CLR, etc.), but I am concerned that it is going to involve to many compromises/challenges that might not make them the most ideal solution for me. Does anyone have any other FRFR options that I might want to consider, or is either the FR212 or CLR going to be the best compromise for a big amp in the room feeling, that is capable of full range audio playback, with good low volume performance, that is relatively easy to dial in decent patches for, which can also easily translate to being decent with headphones, and is a portable all in one solution.

I wanted to keep the first post short and sweet, so below is some additional background for those who cared to read the whole story…

I wanted to go with a cab/wedge based FRFR option because (1) I mostly do cover stuff and like to jam out with backing tracks, (2) I need something that works as good as studio monitors at lower volumes (think medium TV volume that just drowns out string noise), (3) I was looking for the solution that would allow my patches to translate into headphones (Beyerdynamic DT 770 PRO 80 ohm) without too much extra tweaking (FYI I know the challenges and limitations with headphones as I have a POD HD500), and (4) I wanted something that was relatively easy to move around the house (so I can jam out with it on the couch in front of the TV watching sports).

I am just an obsessive hobbyist with a great basement study/jam room, so I do not need to consider all of the things that real giging musicians do. The concerns I have with FRFR is (1) I want/need the “amp in the room” feel when I have a chance to play at loud enough volumes to move some air with the speakers (this is a meaningful part of the inspiration/gratification for me), (2) I mostly play modern rock with high gain and can get into heavy baritone level downtunings at times (basically think Chili Peppers to Chevelle and everything in between), so I was looking for something that could sound “huge” when I needed without too much fuss, and (3) I am worried that FRFR would require too much effort tweaking things to sound right compared to simply using a real 2x12 cab and dealing with the limitations on tonal variety. Note, I recently moved across the country for a new job that is demanding right before my wife delivered our first kid, so I don’t have the ability to spend an inordinate amount of time tweaking things to just to get started with some a halfway decent tones instead of actually playing during my limited free time.

From what I could gather the closest thing that might get me the one stop shop solution that I am looking for could potentially be the Matrix FR212 with the GT1000FX amp. From some posts that I have read this option can apparently provide a decent big and rich real cab feel and is a decent performer at lower volumes, but I have also read other conflicting posts that are not as positive. The Atomic active CLR wedge seems like it could be a plausible solution, but from what I could gather this is not really a decent route is feel was a big concern. If I had to compromise on feel, I could still consider simultaneously running the CLR with my Mesa Roadster and 2x12 Rectifier cab with V30s when I needed the real oomph when I get to crank it up (this looks possible by running a FX out block from the AXE before the power amp and cab IR simulations into the recto FX return while also running the full simulation output to the FRFR input). This seems like it could be a real pain to try to mix volume levels with backing tracks though, and I would very much prefer to not have to mess with multiple systems just to add the feel back. The Matrix NL212 cab seems like it can provide the real cab feel with a reasonable level of tonal versatility. However, (1) I am not sure how good the NL212 is at lower volumes, (2) it would require me to keep my stereo in my study for the backing tracks, which I was really needing to free up for use in another room, and (3) it would not be a single portable system for backing tracks. The cheapest solution would be to get studio monitors (KRK Rokit 8s perhaps) and do the same simultaneous thing with the Roadster as the CLR option, but the additional tradeoff is it would not be an easily portable solution at all.

Any insight that anyone can provide that might clear up my misconceptions, help me feel more comfortable choosing one of these options, or lead me to another decent option to consider would be much appreciated. Many thanks in advance for the help!
 
The CLR is the best option, period...now that comes with a caveat. I think I post this in every thread where a person is trying to compare a frfr rig to a real cab. It's never going to sound or feel the same. It doesn't push air the same way, it doesn't fill a room the same way. You are getting the entire rig, input to fx to amp to cab to mic to the speaker. the only apples to apples comparison is isolating and micing a real cab and listening back to it via the same medium as the Axe.

Guy that are expecting to have the same experience with a frfr speaker as their cabs always have the hardest time adjusting, period. If you can accept and embrace it for what it is, you'll be very happy.
 
The CLR is the best option, period...now that comes with a caveat. I think I post this in every thread where a person is trying to compare a frfr rig to a real cab. It's never going to sound or feel the same. It doesn't push air the same way, it doesn't fill a room the same way. You are getting the entire rig, input to fx to amp to cab to mic to the speaker. the only apples to apples comparison is isolating and micing a real cab and listening back to it via the same medium as the Axe.

Guy that are expecting to have the same experience with a frfr speaker as their cabs always have the hardest time adjusting, period. If you can accept and embrace it for what it is, you'll be very happy.

I totally get the comment about what to generally expect with most FRFR solutions, and I had tried to express my awareness of this in my more detailed follow up post.

The simple question is since the highly coveted CLR option apparently does not push air the same as a real cab (based on your comment, which is totally consistent with everything else I have read so far), are there any other FRFR options, such as the FR212, that could perhaps come meaningfully closer to feeling like a real cab? If the answer is that I will never get even 50% to 75% of the way there in terms of feel with the FRFR options that are currently available, then so be it, but if there is a particular option that is noticeably a step ahead than any other, then I would be very interested to know that. If I can’t get close enough to the total all in one package, then I am thinking I might just stick with my existing 2x12 mesa cab and get some studio monitors so that I don’t waste money on something that will not make me happy enough, but I don’t want to give up on the quest just yet…

FWIW, the NL212 appeared to be the only somewhat middle ground option that I could come across that allowed for more tonal variety via a flatter response while attempting to achieve a real cab feel and perceived size. However, although this is a great concept for some and closer to what I was looking for, it is lacking the full range part I was also seeking.
 
Im no expert but you cant have everything you are asking. If you want it colored and sounding like a cab in a room then you have to color it and use a guitar cab. If you want it to sound like a mic'd cab and utilize all the IR"s and the true greatness of the axe fx you can use the best frfr. I have ev live x x 2 in a room, and also equator desktops. I couldnt be happier. NO ONE would complain about not sounding like a crazy high gained shred attacking machine if I even turned my output up an 1/8 of a notch. But it doesnt have that total thump you in the chest muffled deep bass thing that happens with a real cab. REalize that nothing "we" listen to in any situation has that except a guy sitting in front of his own cab (nothing live nothing recorded, all gets mic'd or pa'd).

ps Im essentially identical to you, remember playing with backing tracks there could be nothing better than a great mic'd produced sound, but honestly I can get oomph out of 2 1x 12's facing me though Id be nearly deaf if done too much. To get a more in the room feel needs more bass, which can be dialed in, but my preference has been just an awesome clear overall tone and feel, id say a mix of in room and mic'd.
 
I own a Axe FX2 and a CLR Cab and honestly, this whole " sounds like a mic'd cab " concept has little meaning to me.

I plug my guitar in to the AFX, turn up the CLR and its sounds like rock and roll heaven to me.

I personally think some people are over analyzing and obsessing over this issue. I am not. If it sounds good , use it! And this rig of mine sounds fucking great! :)
 
I run my output 1 to me CLR and my Seismic SAX 15 and my output 2 into the return loop of my Mesa mark IV into my Recto 2X12.
sometimes I run them together (which is the ultimate way to use this piece of gear IMO it sound amazing that way) or I run one or the other.
I also very often just use my Rokit KRK-8's.
Some people just don't get it. the sound of FRFR through a CLR or other high end FRFR cab is there, the feel is quite different through a Solid state amp into n FRFR cab
as compared to a Tube amp into a regular guitar cab.
That's just reality all kool-aid drinking aside, it is what it is.
I'm quite comfortable going either way now (took me quite a while to embrace FRFR) but the Firmwares keep getting better and better, and the IR's keep getting better and Better as well.
But when I plug directly into my mark IV....it's different there is no argument there, it is different, some players just "need" that bounce/squish /response whatever you want to call it
that you get from a tube amp. with me the sound was really never the issue it was the feel. I can go for weeks and only use my CLR and absolutely love it.
and then I'll turn on my mark IV and I'm completely blown away at how 'different" the response and thickness of the chords/single notes are.
And I don't think it's the Axe I think it's FRFR monitoring systems as a whole. I think covering the extended "full range" loses some of the "punch and girth"
of a regular speaker.
but I'm rambling, if I was you I'd call Tom at Atomic and grab a CLR and give it a try (you get a trial period) and see if it's for you or if it's not.
I've tried most of the higher "praised" FRFR system available to us, the CLR, The RCF and the XiTone are all very good, I think the CLR edges out the others but not by a huge amount.
for just playing at home you'd be good with any one of them.(Even the Seismic I have sounds surprisingly very good)
I have not had the chance to try any of the Matrix speakers so I cannot comment on those.
 
My .02 worth... it sounds like you might be trying to cover too many bases, trying to get presets to translate from an active FRFR wedge or a 212 FRFR cab to headphones, playing to backing tracks and getting "amp in the room" through an amp and cab. You could probably get close but it will never be the same as they are all different delivery systems.

If your just playing covers in your man cave to tracks personally I would go the CLR rout. You are not going to get a good sound out of a 212 Recto cab playing program music through it. The Matrix FR212 could work but for me it seams it would be limited in setup if you plan on running in stereo and would have a bigger foot print minor issues for sure but worth pointing out. I would think that the CLR solution would fit your situation best as you can mix the music right in at the CLR using the second input.

I have found that using the same presets with headphones never translates very well, you always have to tune something. Not saying it doesn't work it's just different as it should be. With headphones the speakers are centermeters from your ear vs. meters with a cab or wedge. Also with a cab or wedge the room is now involved so it obviously sounds totally different.

TK is good people and Atomic has a 15 Day trial, if it doesn't work out you can always return it and go another direction.
 
I know I'm an FRFR hater, but has anyone tried the Accugroove stuff? I am curious since they seem to be doing something a bit more robust. Not too many takers yet it seems.
 
And don't overlook Xitone.

Yes, I'm sure some people have noticed that I'm (reluctantly) selling my passive 2x12s (1 has already sold, actually), but that's only because I'm using active wedges now. Still keeping my active 1x12 Xitone, along with the CLRs. So, I have the ability to do W/D/W (if I ever get around to it!), but I actually use the Xitone a lot of time live, particularly for acoustic gigs with a preamp (and sometimes a small mixer). Works out well for my student recitals too. Plenty loud for a small outdoor stage or indoors.

Yes, the CLRs are amazing, but they and Xitone both have their strong points. Some that may not like the feel of the CLR, might prefer Xitone.

One brilliant thing to note about the 2x12s is that one can be run either stereo or mono. So, one at a gig and you can have your own personal stereo stage monitor. Sweet!
 
I like to play with different IRs, so FRFR is the right route for me. With Atomic Active CLR Cab, i couldn't be happier. It offers deep and rich tone that puts a smile on my face everytime i jam with this setup. I agree, that many ppl over think and analyze these things to sound "real". Axe FX II + CLR sounds awesome! It sounds like Dual Rectitier or Vox AC30 or any other amp+cab i dial in with this setup.
 
I am just an obsessive hobbyist with a great basement study/jam room, so I do not need to consider all of the things that real giging musicians do.

Your requirements reek of FRFR. It will be worth the effort/tweaking given what you are going for.
 
The next evolution to realism is IRs, which necessitates you go FRFR. To get a FRFR setup to have "in the room" qualities, you have to add room and farfield IRs to your mix. I run cab 2 as my ambiance cab, it has a room and a farfield mixed.

I've followed the FRFR dejour trends and the CLR is the best I've played to date.

Limiting yourself to one guitar cabinet defeats the purpose of having a million virtual amp and cab options. A Super Reverb will never sound right through Celestion Blues or Greenbacks, as Friedman wouldn't sound as intended with a 4x10 cab.
 
The next evolution to realism is IRs, which necessitates you go FRFR. To get a FRFR setup to have "in the room" qualities, you have to add room and farfield IRs to your mix. I run cab 2 as my ambiance cab, it has a room and a farfield mixed.

I've followed the FRFR dejour trends and the CLR is the best I've played to date.

Limiting yourself to one guitar cabinet defeats the purpose of having a million virtual amp and cab options. A Super Reverb will never sound right through Celestion Blues or Greenbacks, as Friedman wouldn't sound as intended with a 4x10 cab.
what is cab 2? Do you mean the 2nd cab of all fractal cabs pre set? ie cab no. 2? how do you set this up? ie in parallel? 50/50 mix? thanks
 
And don't overlook Xitone.

Yes, I'm sure some people have noticed that I'm (reluctantly) selling my passive 2x12s (1 has already sold, actually), but that's only because I'm using active wedges now. Still keeping my active 1x12 Xitone, along with the CLRs. So, I have the ability to do W/D/W (if I ever get around to it!), but I actually use the Xitone a lot of time live, particularly for acoustic gigs with a preamp (and sometimes a small mixer). Works out well for my student recitals too. Plenty loud for a small outdoor stage or indoors.

Yes, the CLRs are amazing, but they and Xitone both have their strong points. Some that may not like the feel of the CLR, might prefer Xitone.

One brilliant thing to note about the 2x12s is that one can be run either stereo or mono. So, one at a gig and you can have your own personal stereo stage monitor. Sweet!

I had actually not noticed the Xitone option until just now, and the 2x12 wedge is looking like a very interesting contender for a number of reasons. The ability to do stereo is awesome, I am very much interested in a wedge form factor, it seems like this is geared to be capable of provide some additional missing “feel” compared to other FRFR solutions, and the ability to work in some customized options is an extra bonus!

I have not been able to dig up much useful first hand comparisons yet on how this compared to other FRFR and/or real cab options. Therefore, I wanted learn more, and here are a couple of questions that I had. (1) Could you elaborate more on the notion that those who do not like the feel of the CLR might prefer the Xitone, (2) in general how does the 2x12 compare tone, feel, and perceived “size” wise to a single CLR, the active 1x12 Xitone that you are keeping, and any other FRFR option that you might have direct experience with, (3) could you provide any insight on how far away the 2x12 might still be to a real 2x12 or 4x12 cab experience (and temper my hopeful expectations, if necessary), and (4) does the 2x12 perform as good at lower volumes as the CLR, or is that a tradeoff.

I run my output 1 to me CLR and my Seismic SAX 15 and my output 2 into the return loop of my Mesa mark IV into my Recto 2X12.
sometimes I run them together (which is the ultimate way to use this piece of gear IMO it sound amazing that way) or I run one or the other.
I also very often just use my Rokit KRK-8's.
Some people just don't get it. the sound of FRFR through a CLR or other high end FRFR cab is there, the feel is quite different through a Solid state amp into n FRFR cab
as compared to a Tube amp into a regular guitar cab.
That's just reality all kool-aid drinking aside, it is what it is.
I'm quite comfortable going either way now (took me quite a while to embrace FRFR) but the Firmwares keep getting better and better, and the IR's keep getting better and Better as well.
But when I plug directly into my mark IV....it's different there is no argument there, it is different, some players just "need" that bounce/squish /response whatever you want to call it
that you get from a tube amp. with me the sound was really never the issue it was the feel. I can go for weeks and only use my CLR and absolutely love it.
and then I'll turn on my mark IV and I'm completely blown away at how 'different" the response and thickness of the chords/single notes are.
And I don't think it's the Axe I think it's FRFR monitoring systems as a whole. I think covering the extended "full range" loses some of the "punch and girth"
of a regular speaker.
but I'm rambling, if I was you I'd call Tom at Atomic and grab a CLR and give it a try (you get a trial period) and see if it's for you or if it's not.
I've tried most of the higher "praised" FRFR system available to us, the CLR, The RCF and the XiTone are all very good, I think the CLR edges out the others but not by a huge amount.
for just playing at home you'd be good with any one of them.(Even the Seismic I have sounds surprisingly very good)
I have not had the chance to try any of the Matrix speakers so I cannot comment on those.

You are definitely on the exact same page as me. It is helpful and encouraging/tempting to hear that you have found happiness with having the two approaches (FRFR and real amp and cab) coexist! Since it looks like you have also tried the Xitone option and ultimately went with the CLR, it could be very helpful to get your thoughts on the same comparison questions I listed above.
 
I know I'm an FRFR hater, but has anyone tried the Accugroove stuff? I am curious since they seem to be doing something a bit more robust. Not too many takers yet it seems.

This does look like another potentially interesting option. I just Accugroove a question about what I was looking for and if they think their product (perhaps the Espresso) might be an ideal solution for me. Probably won't be the most objective opinion, but it could be a helpful starting point since there don't seem to be a lot of reports out there yet.
 
what is cab 2? Do you mean the 2nd cab of all fractal cabs pre set? ie cab no. 2? how do you set this up? ie in parallel? 50/50 mix? thanks

Cabinet 1 is my V30 w/ dyn 112 mic
Cabinet 2 runs in parallel, it is a stereo cabinet of two OH IRs, a room and a farfield. I'm not sure of the "mix", as I set it up along time ago. I can look when I'm home. I can tell you it is much quieter than cab 1 and only there to add ambiance.
 
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This is a vast generalization, of course, but it *appears* to me that the majority of guys who do not specialize in high-gain sounds tend to do well with FRFR, myself included (CLR Neo Active Wedge = perfection for me after MANY iterations and much $$$ spent). I am mostly a 'clean-to-break' guy, and most of my patches use the Fender Super Reverb as their base, but I also have patches based on FAS Modern and the Dumble ODS. The folks who yearn for Steve Vai's tone, or any other super-high-gain tones seem, on the whole, less enamored with FRFR; there seems to be some magic something missing for some of them.

That said, I am sure there are clean-to-break guys who can't stand FRFR and some high-gainers who think it's perfect. But as a general rule, I think clean to break, even moderate overdriven tones are no problem for the majority of FRFR implementations, and that some of the super-high-gain sounds can be more problematic. I WOULD be curious to see if this problem persists for any high gainers who switched to the Active CLRs. No way I can tell: I can't stand Vai/Satch/Yngwie - their playing, or even their tone particularly. I'd love to see some of these real cab (and real amp/real cab) guys try it and see if it works for them (with the right IRs, of course - though then again, I am using two stock recto IRs from most of my patches (not the most 'fendery' choice, but it works!) and I love the sound - I don't get too carried away with tweakage).

I 'mic' both my cabs with a U87 I believe, which surprised me, as I thought a '57 & a ribbon might be best - but the bottom line is whatever works.

You get 2 weeks to try the CLR (get the active - the circuitry and DSP are optimized) - so why not order one when you have the time for tweaking patches, IRs etc. and see if it works for you? The convenience of FRFR is massive, as is the consistency vis a vis playing live and recorded sound. Add to that the small, lightweight Neo Active, and it's a sweet, sweet world...

Best of luck in your quest - mine started when I got my Ultra about 6 months after they started selling them, and only now do I feel I've got what I wanted!
 
The CLR is the best option, period...now that comes with a caveat. I think I post this in every thread where a person is trying to compare a frfr rig to a real cab. It's never going to sound or feel the same. It doesn't push air the same way, it doesn't fill a room the same way. You are getting the entire rig, input to fx to amp to cab to mic to the speaker. the only apples to apples comparison is isolating and micing a real cab and listening back to it via the same medium as the Axe.

Guy that are expecting to have the same experience with a frfr speaker as their cabs always have the hardest time adjusting, period. If you can accept and embrace it for what it is, you'll be very happy.

This is simply not true for me. I put my CLR wedge in front of my on the floor, tilted at me, facing me like a monitor speaker, set the dsp to 'tilt', put it up to 1/4 or even 1/8 volume and holy Christ it ROCKS the room, 'moves air', etc. etc. etc. I've got a cut down Fender Twin with a custom Harry Kolbe Cab and an old pre-cbs Princeton next to my Axe setup. I never even turn 'em on. No point to it. I actually get all the 'in the room sound' I need - sounds and reacts like a guitar amp to me, not like a 'mic'd cab'. Maybe it's my ear. Maybe it's my patches. I dunno - but I do not feel this lack that so many speak of, at all.
 
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