Layering guitar helpful tips…?

stm113

Power User
I am about to start a very serious recording project which will be my 1st since I got my Axe a year ago. Until now my coverband, session work with other artists and some demo has kept me busy. Now, my original band is getting back together to re-record our 1st album (to get it right this time) and record a new one, and I thought to myself "what a perfect time to really dig into the Axe for guitar layering & reamping". I intend to use 1 dry track to reamping the layers from as opposed to multiple takes.

I don't have any tips myself but I though I'd start a thread so people could share their experiences with eachother to help people like me. I am curious:
1 how are you running your set up to monitor your tones to reamp?
2 how do your settings differ when you layer guitar tracks as opposed to trying to nail it with 1.
tone/preset?
3 what combinations have you found that work well together?
 
While we are talking about combinations, also curious whats your go to IR's/IR combinations?

Also does anyone have new tonestack/amp combinations that you also like?
 
Re-amping is fine for making amp/effects changes, but to get the thickness of double-tracked guitars, you really gotta record 2 separate takes. All of the slight human imperfections will make it sound huge compared to robotic accuracy.
 
Re-amping is fine for making amp/effects changes, but to get the thickness of double-tracked guitars, you really gotta record 2 separate takes. All of the slight human imperfections will make it sound huge compared to robotic accuracy.

Correct. Though being very "tight" in your second take is also recommended. So, human imperfection is needed but being as close to the original take as possiible makes it sound even bigger.
 
I should have clarified that … the layering is going to be for individual guitar parts, like recording multiple amps at the same time, i'll be recording my individual parts & the other guitarist will be doing the same. He and I rarely play the same thing, either rhythmically, melodically, or the pitch is usually different in what we play
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like what you want to do is the following:

1. Track dry guitar.
2. Reamp guitar several times and blend all takes together when mixing.

I, too, thought that this was probably the best route for getting a huge tone for my guitars when I first started recording with my axe-fx II. Certainly, some of my favorite recorded guitar tones include playing through multiple amps - one such holy grail tone is Adam Jones' tone off 10,000 - which is mainly a blend of a Mesa Rectifier, a Diezel VH4, and a Marshall Super Lead. So I went off dialing things and getting ready to start reamping my L and R tracks multiple times for each...

Much to my surprise, an attempt to reamp the same signal twice resulted in these crazy phase cancellations, weird sucking noises and frequency humps like none other. So I started trying two amps in combination while playing or reamping. I haven't had a great deal of success doing it that way, but it doesn't sound nearly as awful as repeated reamped iterations of the same material. Truthfully, the biggest sounds I get out of the Axe-II are just single amps on single performances. If you want to blend numerous amps, consider quad tracking.

If anybody else has been successful with the aforementioned method though - I'm all ears. In my opinion, it always sounds strange.
 
I've had success reamping one layer of axefx and one layer of a real amp with the same take. IMHO, you can get all the thickness you need from one track per side with the right patch. All this stuff about quad tracking and such really doesn't end up helping much in the end unless you play four takes and are EXTREMELY tight. BUT, more than one track per side usually ends up a mess. Dial in one badass patch and reamp it once per side. There really are no excuses why you can't get super thick and punchy, tight, 'add cool arbitrary adjective here' sounds from ONE patch in the axe fx.
 
Erock - Did you have to reverse the phase of the amp or axe-fx wave forms? I've heard about some people doing that and getting good results. Apparently some amps are 180 degrees out of phase with others? :?

I would love to blend my FAS Modern patch with my VH4 or Recto patch - they're both so great in their own way. Anybody else trying this?
 
Erock - Did you have to reverse the phase of the amp or axe-fx wave forms? I've heard about some people doing that and getting good results. Apparently some amps are 180 degrees out of phase with others? :?

I would love to blend my FAS Modern patch with my VH4 or Recto patch - they're both so great in their own way. Anybody else trying this?

I did not reverse phase. I just reamped live and then with the AxeFx. A bit of latency from the recording interface round trip may have helped things.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like what you want to do is the following:

1. Track dry guitar.
2. Reamp guitar several times and blend all takes together when mixing.

I, too, thought that this was probably the best route for getting a huge tone for my guitars when I first started recording with my axe-fx II. Certainly, some of my favorite recorded guitar tones include playing through multiple amps - one such holy grail tone is Adam Jones' tone off 10,000 - which is mainly a blend of a Mesa Rectifier, a Diezel VH4, and a Marshall Super Lead. So I went off dialing things and getting ready to start reamping my L and R tracks multiple times for each...


That's exactly what I had in mind. I wonder why its not working out right for people
 
Re-amping is fine for making amp/effects changes, but to get the thickness of double-tracked guitars, you really gotta record 2 separate takes. All of the slight human imperfections will make it sound huge compared to robotic accuracy.

+1

No shortcut for this, though someone will doubtless write an algorithm to simulate those imperfections.
 
I've had success reamping one layer of axefx and one layer of a real amp with the same take. IMHO, you can get all the thickness you need from one track per side with the right patch. All this stuff about quad tracking and such really doesn't end up helping much in the end unless you play four takes and are EXTREMELY tight. BUT, more than one track per side usually ends up a mess. Dial in one badass patch and reamp it once per side. There really are no excuses why you can't get super thick and punchy, tight, 'add cool arbitrary adjective here' sounds from ONE patch in the axe fx.

I do the same....
and occasionally throw another [much less gainy one] up the middle..

so I have two gainy / hot tracks wide and a 'crispy crunchy' but very thick tone up the middle
 
Much to my surprise, an attempt to reamp the same signal twice resulted in these crazy phase cancellations, weird sucking noises and frequency humps like none other. So I started trying two amps in combination while playing or reamping. I haven't had a great deal of success doing it that way, but it doesn't sound nearly as awful as repeated reamped iterations of the same material. Truthfully, the biggest sounds I get out of the Axe-II are just single amps on single performances. If you want to blend numerous amps, consider quad tracking.

If anybody else has been successful with the aforementioned method though - I'm all ears. In my opinion, it always sounds strange.

maybe the tones you chose were too similar
also, try popping a sample delay [set to about 300 samples] on the right hand track so that same 'stuff' don't happen at exactly the same time..

I use a 5153Red to the right and a VH4ch4 to the left..
they are just about simialr enough.. and just about different enough.. to sit well together..

both reamped tracks are cut from the same source performance and they sound great..

if I need to add another part though, this will be a 2nd performance
 
I personally don't like the sound of quad+ tracking; it sounds too much like a phaser; some kinda thick, smooth liquid. I prefer grit :)

I like hard-panning tight, double-tracked guitars using the same amp. Works great for riffs and solos.

For me, anything more than 2 is reserved for extreme harmony effects, like Pantera's "Floods" solo.
 
maybe the tones you chose were too similar
also, try popping a sample delay [set to about 300 samples] on the right hand track so that same 'stuff' don't happen at exactly the same time..

I use a 5153Red to the right and a VH4ch4 to the left..
they are just about simialr enough.. and just about different enough.. to sit well together..

both reamped tracks are cut from the same source performance and they sound great..

if I need to add another part though, this will be a 2nd performance

Oh yeah - I can double track with different amps all day and get great results. I have even done as you said and faked it with a single performance. Here's what I was actually trying:

1. Track rhythm left
2. Track rhythm right
3. Reamp rhythm left with another amp and pan left
4. Reamp rhythm right with another amp and pan right

When I do that, it's crazy sound city. I'll probably have a go again when I get my guitar back Friday. Getting my 7 and 5-string bass set up for drop Ab. Yikes.
 
Not all styles of music benefit from quad tracking. The day Iron Maiden start quad tracking I shoot them.
To me it's better when you only have one guitar player in a band, when you have two, a single track from each of them is better and conveys the idea of a multiple guitars band. Metallica's rythm parts are quad tracked, and you don't really get the feeling two guitarists play the rythm. (Ok, at that point it's usually only james doing the recording, but still).
 
So… this is what I wanted to do, will it not work well?
I am guitar left in the mix, I want to track my guitar dry, then reamping to find the tone I want to sit in the mix, that tone being the main part of my tone. Then taking the same original dry track and reamp another similar but different tone to add some depth of tone, then maybe a 3rd reamp from the same original dry track but this time a much cleaner, crunchy tone.

Then do the same for the other guitarist who's parts are panned to the right.

I know for a long time in the real amp world artists have recorded multiple amps, multiple cabs, multiple mic'ings simultaneously to get rich tones with depth. Mick Mars did this on the Dr Feelgood CD, though I never really liked his tones I LOVE his tone on Kickstart My Heart (you can hear the cleaner crunch mixed in). That kind of this g is what I am wanting accomplish
 
So… this is what I wanted to do, will it not work well?
I am guitar left in the mix, I want to track my guitar dry, then reamping to find the tone I want to sit in the mix, that tone being the main part of my tone. Then taking the same original dry track and reamp another similar but different tone to add some depth of tone, then maybe a 3rd reamp from the same original dry track but this time a much cleaner, crunchy tone.

Then do the same for the other guitarist who's parts are panned to the right.

I know for a long time in the real amp world artists have recorded multiple amps, multiple cabs, multiple mic'ings simultaneously to get rich tones with depth. Mick Mars did this on the Dr Feelgood CD, though I never really liked his tones I LOVE his tone on Kickstart My Heart (you can hear the cleaner crunch mixed in). That kind of this g is what I am wanting accomplish

be sure to experiment with the panning...
you have a lot of options open to you so it's a case of exploring them to see when you think works best...
a key consideration is how your parts interact with the other guitarist's parts
are they unison, harmonized with largely the same rhythmic content or completely different?

in a twin guitar line-up it's not rare for one to riff and the other to power-chord...
in this case, you benig 'all tracks left' and him being 'all tracks right' will sound odd / unbalanced
so you'd need to create a sound stage that spreads you both wider across the stereo image where your resultant apparent placements are each just a little either side of centre

example:
you gainy hard left
you crunchy mid right
assuming your levels are essentially the same your apparent placement will be 'a little left'
him gainy hard right
him crunchy mid left
assuming his levels are essentially the same his apparent placement will be 'a little right'
 
Few hints:
  • be careful with duplicating and delaying the same track - it can create comb filtering effect. Mono compatibility check !!!
  • phasing issues with reamping the same track is easy to solve with real amps (mic positioning) however very dependent on the IRs. I like to use mpt IRs (phase aligned). It can be time variation in the starting sample of the IRs, so if you want to use different IRs check them if they are phase aligned or not
  • if you are using double-track and reamp it for several times, panning combined with different amp model/IR/EQ curve can be a solution, can sound huge, but alays check in mono, the above mentioned comb filtering can cause surprises

Personally I prefer 2x takes for both left and right (quad-tracks) with different amps and cabs however I do not feel the necessity of quad tracking with fractal.
 
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