Last 2 Tap Tempo

[Lumikut]

Wanted to raise this again. Related to this thread http://http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-wish-list/89819-chose-last-2-tap-tempo-option.html

Basically What I've noticed is that I can get the tempo correct, but in live situations where I'm following the lead of another, the averaged tap tempo becomes offset slightly from the desired beat. So although the BPM is correct, the timing is off if that makes sense. What I have to do is pause, and then continue again to tap the tempo with the beat and then it is correct on both tempo and follows the beat.

However, correcting any tempo deviations during a song requires doing this again.

So just wanted to bring it up again in discussion to see if there are others who would like a "last 2 taps" option or setting that can be changed as desired.

 

[Rex]

...the averaged tap tempo becomes offset slightly from the desired beat. So although the BPM is correct, the timing is off if that makes sense.

I don't understand this. If BPM is correct, then tempo is correct. Tempo is nothing more than a BPM value.

For example, if Tempo is set to one beat per second, and you have your delay set to a quarter note, then when you play a note, its echo will come exactly one second later. And that's about as correct as you can get.

 

[mbrown3]

Wanted to raise this again. Related to this thread http://http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-wish-list/89819-chose-last-2-tap-tempo-option.html

Basically What I've noticed is that I can get the tempo correct, but in live situations where I'm following the lead of another, the averaged tap tempo becomes offset slightly from the desired beat. So although the BPM is correct, the timing is off if that makes sense. What I have to do is pause, and then continue again to tap the tempo with the beat and then it is correct on both tempo and follows the beat.

However, correcting any tempo deviations during a song requires doing this again.

So just wanted to bring it up again in discussion to see if there are others who would like a "last 2 taps" option or setting that can be changed as desired.

Your link is wrong. It has an extra http:// in it. But I completely agree with you regarding last 2 or "no-average" options for tapping. +100 for that.

 

[mbrown3]

I don't understand this. If BPM is correct, then tempo is correct. Tempo is nothing more than a BPM value.

For example, if Tempo is set to one beat per second, and you have your delay set to a quarter note, then when you play a note, its echo will come exactly one second later. And that's about as correct as you can get.

BPM is not correct...I think he misspoke. The issue is, it takes an average of 10 taps. But in most cases, the first several taps aren't 100% accurate to the tempo of the song. Once your foot gets tapping, it settles into the correct tempo, which is why most delay devices use the last two taps to set the BPM. Taking an average means that it's including the last two PLUS the earlier, more inaccurate taps. So, BPM is accurate in terms of the average of those ten taps, but not in terms of the song itself (again, in most cases. Some people are probably better at getting the early taps right, but most people, not so much).

 

[Lumikut]

I don't understand this. If BPM is correct, then tempo is correct. Tempo is nothing more than a BPM value.

For example, if Tempo is set to one beat per second, and you have your delay set to a quarter note, then when you play a note, its echo will come exactly one second later. And that's about as correct as you can get.

I thought this would be confusing. Let me see if I can clarify.

Although the BPM/tempo is correct (100 BPM for example), the downbeat is not synced...it's offset. Meaning I can look at the blinking light on the MFC and it's got the right tempo but it's not flashing in rhythm with what we're playing.

whats weird is I tap in the tempo by following the tempo of the song, but the averaging causes the "downbeat" to be off as described above. Let me know if this makes any more sense.

If it doesn't than don't worry about it lol ...last 2 taps would be nice anyways.

 

[Lumikut]

Mbrown...thank you! What he said

 

[mbrown3]

I thought this would be confusing. Let me see if I can clarify.

Although the BPM/tempo is correct (100 BPM for example), the downbeat is not synced...it's offset. Meaning I can look at the blinking light on the MFC and it's got the right tempo but it's not flashing in rhythm with what we're playing.

whats weird is I tap in the tempo by following the tempo of the song, but the averaging causes the "downbeat" to be off as described above. Let me know if this makes any more sense.

If it doesn't than don't worry about it lol ...last 2 taps would be nice anyways.

I don't think the BPM is actually right, though. If it simply offset the downbeat, then it would re-sync as soon as you played the next note on the proper downbeat. Sometimes it does. But I've noticed what you're talking about...it takes me longer to get tap tempo working on the Axe than it does, for example, on my G-System, or TC Flashback X4, both of which use last 2 taps.

 

[Rex]

Okay, I could use a little clarification after that flurry.

@aggiemike08: Is the BPM turning out correct for you? Does the tempo seem to be out of phase (if so, which effects are you noticing that in?)?

 

[Lumikut]

Yes...The tempo seems correct but is out of phase is how I would describe it....good way of thinking about it Rex.

I notice it most with dual delay in which I use a quarter and eighth delay together.

 

[Lumikut]

Also i only notice if I'm "following" the tempo. If it's a song that I start and set the tempo it's a non issue. Finding the tempo is where the issue is at

 

[Bakerman]

the averaging causes the "downbeat" to be off as described above

...

I notice it most with dual delay in which I use a quarter and eighth delay together.

This isn't caused by averaging specifically. The Axe doesn't attempt to align the blinking with any taps, so alignment with something else will always be random. This doesn't affect anything about the sound so I'm not sure what you mean with the delay scenario.

 

[Rex]

Yes...The tempo seems correct but is out of phase is how I would describe it....good way of thinking about it Rex.

I notice it most with dual delay in which I use a quarter and eighth delay together.

The delays are immune to phase issues. If you've set the tempo to an eighth note beat, the repeat will sound exactly one eight-note after you play the note. It doesn't matter whether you play that note on the downbeat, a beat after the downbeat, or 26.3 milliseconds before the downbeat. The delay will be exactly as precise (or imprecise) as your playing.

If you're concerned about the timing of the flashing light on the front panel, don't be. Trust your ears, and it'll work fine.

 

[ethomas1013]

This isn't caused by averaging specifically. The Axe doesn't attempt to align the blinking with any taps, so alignment with something else will always be random. This doesn't affect anything about the sound so I'm not sure what you mean with the delay scenario.

+1 to this. The actual flash of the light is only an indication of the tempo, not necessarily in sync with what you are playing. Using your example of 100 bpm, you can start playing at any moment in time and as long as you are playing at 100 bpm your delays will be in sync regardless of the actually flash of the light on the AxeFX.

However, I have noticed that it can be hard to get the tap-tempo in sync. I play with a couple different drummers who fluctuate a bit and I occasionally need to re-adjust the tempo so my dotted 8th delay will stay in sync with his current tempo. I don't think my tapping is that far off, I think the way it averages is what is giving me problems. Anything that can be done to improve the way the tap-tempo functions would be welcome by me.

 

[Lumikut]

you can start playing at any moment in time and as long as you are playing at 100 bpm your delays will be in sync regardless of the actually flash of the light on the AxeFX.

Thanks guys for the input. I need to mess around with it at home based on what you've told me. Cause:

• I tap in the tempo based on the song I'm following (>10 taps).
• I start playing with the song and my ears tell me that something's off...the delays are not in sync with the song.
• That's when I look at the flashing light and sure enough it's not in sync with the song.

I'll mess around with it some more. I just know past devices I've used with the last 2 taps I've never had this issue. Even though it's a 2 tap method I still would tap on it 10, 15, 20 times as the song gets going and then periodically if I notice it getting out of sync.

In fact, a buddy of mine was playing on the Axe last week for a set we were doing and he was having the same trouble (I didn't forwarn him about it cause I forgot honestly). But afterwards we were talking about it and he did mention that it was weird and was having trouble getting it in sync with what we were playing.

 

[ethomas1013]

I guess I have never really paid attention to the light when tapping. So, I'll append my comments to say that it is possible the light is synchronized to the taps.

However, if I switch to a preset that is set for 100 bmp and I have my delay time set at dotted 8ths, I do not need to start playing in sync with the light for the delays to be in sync with the set tempo. I just have to play at the correct tempo. Hope that makes sense...


Edit: I don't have my controller here but I did use the tempo button on the face of the unit to adjust the tempo. The light does eventually synchronize with my manual tapping so I'm going to assume that it's the same over midi with a controller. But my comment is still true that you don't have to play in sync with the light - you just have to play at the same tempo.

 

[MGW]

Your link is wrong. It has an extra http:// in it. But I completely agree with you regarding last 2 or "no-average" options for tapping. +100 for that.

Yes...I would definitely like the option to use something other than the average...like the last two taps.

 

[Lumikut]

The light does eventually synchronize with my manual tapping

Yes I've noticed that as well; eventually it does synchronize.

I guess the benefit with the averaging is that you get a more accurate value, however the benefit with the last 2 taps is very quickly you can "find the tempo" and get it synched and make corrections very quickly too.

So if you tap 10 times in both methods, the "last 2 method" will get you where you want to be faster...however even though you tapped 10 times you're only as accurate as those last 2 taps. I certainly see the benefits of both...

I just prefer the last 2

 

[barhrecords]

I have no suggested new algorithm for tap tempo,

but the Fractal is more finicky to tap tempo than my TC stuff.

I think it could be improved.

I agree with the above, the purpose of tap tempo is to set the BPM. If the BPM value is set correctly, it worked. The purpose is not to make sure the flashing tempo lights follow the downbeats / backbeats.

I don't really even look at the device after I make sure my foot is on the correct switch I've had a few blunders where I toggle an effect on and off in tempo by mistake

 

[Rex]

...I have noticed that it can be hard to get the tap-tempo in sync. I play with a couple different drummers who fluctuate a bit and I occasionally need to re-adjust the tempo so my dotted 8th delay will stay in sync with his current tempo. I don't think my tapping is that far off...

The problem is your drummer, not your Axe-Fx. If he wanders enough for you to notice it, he's also micro-wandering enough to gradually drift out of sync. You could tap all day and never be in sync.

 

[mbrown3]

+1 to this. The actual flash of the light is only an indication of the tempo, not necessarily in sync with what you are playing. Using your example of 100 bpm, you can start playing at any moment in time and as long as you are playing at 100 bpm your delays will be in sync regardless of the actually flash of the light on the AxeFX.

However, I have noticed that it can be hard to get the tap-tempo in sync. I play with a couple different drummers who fluctuate a bit and I occasionally need to re-adjust the tempo so my dotted 8th delay will stay in sync with his current tempo. I don't think my tapping is that far off, I think the way it averages is what is giving me problems. Anything that can be done to improve the way the tap-tempo functions would be welcome by me.

Yep, this is exactly my experience. The BPM actually isn't in sync...because if it was, then it would "re-sync" as soon as you played the next note on the beat. My experience is that it sets BPM a bit off of the actual tempo.

FWIW, I don't care about the blinking light at all. Don't even pay attention to it almost ever.