Large-but-Precise Question re: FC-12 vs. RJM MMGT

D

Dr. Dipwad

Experienced
Hi, everyone.

Long ago, when the FC-12 was still just a twinkle in Cliff's eye, I asked a question comparing the Fractal FC-12 with the RJM MMGT-16.

Here is that thread: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fc-12-vs-rjm-mmgt-series-functionality-comparisons.139030/

An important part of that thread was: I was asking for non-obvious comparisons. I didn't want, "The FC-12 has 12 switches, whereas the MMGT-16 has 16 switches." (That much is obvious.)

But I was looking for more interesting comparisons, like this:

Q1. Are there things which the FC-12 can do, by virtue of its integration with the Axe III, which the RJM MMGT controllers just can't do, because they lack that integration?

...or, this...

Q2. How many different colors can the color-rings on the FC-12 display? Are they more/less/equally flexible with the colors on the MMGT scribble-strips?

...or, this...

Q3. The MMGT scribble-strips look bigger than those on the FC-12. Does that make a big difference in # of characters and/or readability? Especially for those of us whose over-40 eyes are gettin' sketchy?

I got some great replies at the time.

But, of course, a lot of information was speculative back then: Folks were guessing, or trying to tease answers out from the partial information then provided.

I'd like to re-ask the same questions now: Now that people are actually obtaining FC-12 (and -6) controllers, are there any interesting insights you guys can offer comparing FC-12 vs MMGT-16, apart from the price and the different # of switches? To reiterate my questions from above, Does the integration with Axe-III give the FC-12 a much easier workflow, for example? Are the colors more/less flexible on one, than the other? And are the scribble-strips of one easier to read, with more information, than the other?

And, are there any other interesting differences I hadn't thought to ask about?

Obviously MMGT-16 is more expensive. But that doesn't mean a player would be happier with it. Even if money were no object, a player might prefer the workflow, or the integration, or even the style, of the FC-12.

As you guys get the first few FC-6 and FC-12 controllers, please let me know your impressions/answers to Q1, Q2, and Q3 above.

Thanks!
 
Q3. Yes. Reason I sold my liquidfoot and went to rjm. Even the liquid foot is bigger than the fractal strips from what it looks like.
 
semi related to Q1. As FC requires no FW upgrades since all features coming with the AXE-FX III firmware updates you will have instant access to new features for the FC6/12 (at least as I understand it).
Any 3rd party controller would require work and updates from those suppliers which will take time, sometimes quite some time I would guess
 
Two great responses thus far:

Reasons to prefer RJM's MMGT-x controllers:
1. RJM MMGT-x controllers have better, larger-font, more-characters scribble-strips (from dpeterson)
2. ...?

Reasons to prefer Fractal's FC-x controllers:
1. Fractal FC-x controllers won't require separate firmware updates; they'll update when your Axe-III does (from MrGuitarabuse)
2. ...?

I'm curious and exited to see what other interesting comparisons folks come up with. Especially I'm hoping for input from people who've owned and use both.

I haven't owned/used either one, yet. So I can only express guesses and suspicions.

Here's a guess: The colored LEDs are around the footswitch on the FC-x controllers, instead of above them. On RJM, the color comes from the scribble-strip itself, which is above the footswitch. That means that, on the FC-x, you can't actually see the color associated with a switch when you're in the act of pressing it. I'm not sure that's much of a problem. Maybe it's not a problem at all. But it certainly doesn't seem advantageous.

Here's a suspicion: I suspect that the Fractal FC-x controllers will get a faster response from the unit because they're communicating over a custom protocol on an XLR cable, not over MIDI. I'm sure both are very fast; but I suspect Fractal would be a few milliseconds faster. (I'm not sure anyone would notice the difference.)
 
Ideal for me would have been for the strips to change color, because when I go to look at the board I'm looking at the words, not the switch. Kind of like how I look at the AX8 screen to see what the effects are and whether they're on or off, not what color the lights are... I don't pay attention to the lights at all.

I reality I doubt it will make a difference, but I agree that it doesn't seem to be the most useful setup for my tastes (not that mine need apply to anyone else). And IIRC at some point Cliff or someone said that keeps the costs down and production simpler? If so, that's certainly a plus.
 
jefferski said:
Ideal for me would have been for the strips to change color, because when I go to look at the board I'm looking at the words, not the switch. Kind of like how I look at the AX8 screen to see what the effects are and whether they're on or off, not what color the lights are... I don't pay attention to the lights at all.

I reality I doubt it will make a difference, but I agree that it doesn't seem to be the most useful setup for my tastes (not that mine need apply to anyone else). And IIRC at some point Cliff or someone said that keeps the costs down and production simpler? If so, that's certainly a plus.
Click to expand...

And I have found relying on any color lights can be a problem on certain stages or outdoors - so I prefer either consistency of buttons (boost is always THIS switch) or being able to see the displays. Or a piece of tape with sharpie!
 
Dr. Dipwad said:
Q1. Are there things which the FC-12 can do, by virtue of its integration with the Axe III, which the controllers just can't do, because they lack that integration?
Click to expand...

Cliff did a nice job with the 3rd party MIDI spec so I think most of the raw functionality can be done via MIDI. The thing that's missing is the integration. The FC configuration is part of the AxeIII data. Editing is only required on one device. And as things are added, obviously you're at the mercy of RJM to keep up.

Dr. Dipwad said:
Q2. How many different colors can the color-rings on the FC-12 display? Are they more/less/equally flexible with the colors on the MMGT scribble-strips?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what the limit is on the FC but it currently does support quite a few (don't recall the exact number).

Dr. Dipwad said:
Q3. The MMGT scribble-strips look bigger than those on the FC-12. Does that make a big difference in # of characters and/or readability? Especially for those of us whose over-40 eyes are gettin' sketchy?
Click to expand...

The ones on the MMGT do look bigger. I'm 53 and use reading glasses these days for the computer but I have no trouble with the FC scribble strips.
 
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One thing to keep in mind too is that once the III is done and the next thing comes along or you move to some other platform, the RJM can and most likely will work with it. The FC is stuck to III, like the old foot controller now does not work with current hardware.
 
Dr. Dipwad said:
Q2. How many different colors can the color-rings on the FC-12 display? Are they more/less/equally flexible with the colors on the MMGT scribble-strips?
Q3. The MMGT scribble-strips look bigger than those on the FC-12. Does that make a big difference in # of characters and/or readability? Especially for those of us whose over-40 eyes are gettin' sketchy?
Click to expand...

One thing I think is worth pointing out is that the FC scribble strips do not change colors (other than reverse). The color changing happens with the LED rings around the swtiches. To me, this is a good thing because I find the text less legible with different color backgrounds. I used to have a Liquid Foot controller with the same sort of colored scribble strips as the RJM and I would have much rather had stable text background colors with the rings around the LEDs.
 
sskkmm said:
And I have found relying on any color lights can be a problem on certain stages or outdoors - so I prefer either consistency of buttons (boost is always THIS switch) or being able to see the displays. Or a piece of tape with sharpie!
Click to expand...
Good point, I didn't think about being able to see the various colors in daylight, etc.
 
hippietim said:
One thing I think is worth pointing out is that the FC scribble strips do not change colors (other than reverse). The color changing happens with the LED rings around the swtiches. To me, this is a good thing because I find the text less legible with different color backgrounds. I used to have a Liquid Foot controller with the same sort of colored scribble strips as the RJM and I would have much rather had stable text background colors with the rings around the LEDs.
Click to expand...
According to Admin M@ in another thread, the color cannot be reversed currently - "reserved for hold" - whatever that actually means ;)
 
dpeterson said:
One thing to keep in mind too is that once the III is done and the next thing comes along or you move to some other platform, the RJM can and most likely will work with it. The FC is stuck to III, like the old foot controller now does not work with current hardware.
Click to expand...

Great point.
 
All I know about the FC is what I’ve read here, so I can best tell you about the RJM I have been using since moving to the III and away from the MFC101 used for many years.

I’ve been using the MMGT22 for a while now and like it more and more with use. Ron with RJM, like Cliff, stays in daily touch with his customer base and is very responsive in keeping the MMGT up to date. While not as handy as automatic update with Axe FX firmware, the functional difference will be minimal as Footswitch functions don’t change as often as other things.

The LED screens on the MMGT are a major advantage over anything else I have seen. They can do reverse screen, split for hold functions, display bold fonts, and have a central screen for the tuner that is huge compared to anything that can be offered by small strips. The screens are beautiful on a dark or lit stage, giving immediate status of function. In broad daylight the words and fonts are large enough to clearly see on what appears as a black on grey/green background. It is always visible and legible. That can’t be over-emphasized, and I am unsure how the small FC windows can compare. Sometime size does matter.

The MMGT also allows up to 16 pages of functions, for those with deep controlling needs. As you can also have a plethora of individual midi-controlled devices in the machine that can be accessed by commands contained in any of the button functions. The programming depth is a lot like the Axe FX itself in that the water goes way deeper than most will ever venture. Again, not sure how deep you can alter midi control from the III to control how many devices. I’m mainly saying it’s deep, but clear, swimming with the RJM.

I’m still debating on purchasing the FC, and am on the list. I love the built in programming, and assume it’ll be a huge success. Likely the best way I can express the incredible depth of the MMGT is to say that, if you put a FAS logo on it, I would totally believe it could come from Cliff’s mind. It has the kind of build quality and depth of capability you see in an Axe Fx. That’s pretty high praise in my mind. If you want midi, the RJM MMGT is the only device I have experienced on a par with what is on the other end of the cable.

If you want total plug and play, it’s a one man show. FC. Period.

One last thing that I know about the MMGT that I don’t on the FC is a big deal to me. The MMGT is a breeze to open and replace parts, if required. When parts fail, and they will, it is so cleanly laid out, with parts quickly available that generally take simple, common tools to replace. Again, service from the maker is exemplary.

So, as you can tell, I don’t just like the MMGT22, I love using it every gig, just like the Axe Fx III. If the FC works for you, at the price, it’ll be a steal. Really, I think it’ll come to what you want. I know that isn’t a direct, point v point, comparison of function @hippietim but I just don’t have personal use on the FC to give anything more useful than what others have shared. I hope this benefits you in some way.
 
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Good points.

Only going by the pics , i think the FC will work for me, and i might want a combo of FC12 and FC 6 . This would basically cover me if i want a static set up or should i choose a few various layouts, with long press, etc.

And, as you mentioned, the Fact that it is designed for the axe fx 3 specifically, goes a long way .

I am a sucker for as may IA’s the better :) but i do want to be able to read clearly and easily, what i am turning off and on

The area that may concern me as a preference, is the MMGT22 seems to have the larger lettering with flexible readout that makes it easier for me to see. This is just going by what i read only for either , I don’t know this personally as experience yet.

I am currently using the Helix as a temporary midi controller for the axe 3 , and i really like the scribble strips, and not sure if the FC has the same size , easy to read lettering ?



Rick said:
All I know about the FC is what I’ve read here, so I can best tell you about the RJM I have been using since moving to the III and away from the MFC101 used for many years.

I’ve been using the MMGT22 for a while now and like it more and more with use. Ron with RJM, like Cliff, stays in daily touch with his customer base and is very responsive in keeping the MMGT up to date. While not as handy as automatic update with Axe FX firmware, the functional difference will be minimal as Footswitch functions don’t change as often as other things.

The LED screens on the MMGT are a major advantage over anything else I have seen. They can do reverse screen, split for hold functions, display bold fonts, and have a central screen for the tuner that is huge compared to anything that can be offered by small strips. The screens are beautiful on a dark or lit stage, giving immediate status of function. In broad daylight the words and fonts are large enough to clearly see on what appears as a black on grey/green background. It is always visible and legible. That can’t be over-emphasized, and I am unsure how the small FC windows can compare. Sometime size does matter.

The MMGT also allows up to 16 pages of functions, for those with deep controlling needs. As you can also have a plethora of individual midi-controlled devices in the machine that can be accessed by commands contained in any of the button functions. The programming depth is a lot like the Axe FX itself in that the water goes way deeper than most will ever venture. Again, not sure how deep you can alter midi control from the III to control how many devices. I’m mainly saying it’s deep, but clear, swimming with the RJM.

I’m still debating on purchasing the FC, and am on the list. I love the built in programming, and assume it’ll be a huge success. Likely the best way I can express the incredible depth of the MMGT is to say that, if you put a FAS logo on it, I would totally believe it could come from Cliff’s mind. It has the kind of build quality and depth of capability you see in an Axe Fx. That’s pretty high praise in my mind. If you want midi, the RJM MMGT is the only device I have experienced on a par with what is on the other end of the cable.

If you want total plug and play, it’s a one man show. FC. Period.

One last thing that I know about the MMGT that I don’t on the FC is a big deal to me. The MMGT is a breeze to open and replace parts, if required. When parts fail, and they will, it is so cleanly laid out, with parts quickly available that generally take simple, common tools to replace. Again, service from the maker is exemplary.

So, as you can tell, I don’t just like the MMGT22, I love using it every gig, just like the Axe Fx III. If the FC works for you, at the price, it’ll be a steal. Really, I think it’ll come to what you want. I know that isn’t a direct, point v point, comparison of function @hippietim but I just don’t have personal use on the FC to give anything more useful than what others have shared. I hope this benefits you in some way.
Click to expand...
 
It looks like that’s going to be a user by user choice. I doubt FAS would release anything not clearly legible to their average user, that’s just not their style. With the larger of the two costing less than half of the MMGT, I think price alone will decide for most. Ironically, that’s the same thing that works against FAS with their modeling competitors, so this time it’ll play out to their favor.

Frankly, I bought the MMGT simply because the FC didn’t make it to market. My mindset was the same as buying the III. I mean, seriously, the III is not an inexpensive piece of gear so arguing dollars exclusively is a little thin, at best. I researched the very best midi foot controllers, and bought the best of the best... just like I did with the modeler it controls. There were lesser options, and I took function over cost. That’s my choice, for me. YMMV.

What I’m saying, to assure I am not hijacking, is that you can expect the FC series to be a lot more than just serviceable. They’ll be great pedals because Fractal Audio Systems doesn’t do mediocre. And they’ll offer more function than the MFC series, which served me (and most FAS players) well for years. But they’ll not be the best for every user, and for many of those, the MMGT might just be the ultimate. So far, I’m that guy.
 
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99% sure i will be going FC12 and 50% sure adding FC6, with the final decisions when i get to see the videos etc. I might be able to just have the 12 and be happy

i agree, FAS doesn’t do mediocre , so in that department i am sold.
 
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