Just installed Celestion F12-X200 into my Genz Benz GFlex 2x12 and ...

I bought a couple F12's and put them in two value priced birch 1x12 cabs I bought from Amazon, using a Powerstage 700 they sound great with my FM3. I'm a fan.
 
neale dunham said:
Yes, this is exactly what it does sound like.

I have tried various settings within the Axe fx but nothing seems to cure the anaemic sound of the F12 compared to a conventional Celestion for example.

Some Axe Ir's sound marginally better than others, but ultimately, the F12 to my ears doesn't stand up to a conventional guitar speaker when comparing like for like.

Be interested to hear from guys that think they can get the F12-X200 to sound as good as a Celestion Heritage G12 m for example?

In my extensive testing of this speaker, the best I can get, is a mix between FRFR and Conventional sounding speaker, which kinda lacks in both areas for me.

Despite Celestions' claims that the speaker is neutral enough to adopt almost any speaker type IR that you could want to overlay.
I find that a wild stretch of the imagination.

None of the IR's within the axe fx 3, that I know well, sound anywhere as good as their real world counterparts.
If anyone knows where I might be going wrong here, please help. I am all ears as this is driving me nuts.

Over the last year, I have persevered with this speaker and spent countless hours tweaking and always falling short of a conventional guitar speaker sound.

I know my ears are probably programmed to recognise this sound. However, my brain will instantly alert me if something sounds better. In my experience of the F12 it always sounds inferior to a regular speaker.

Then I hear that guys on here, are getting good results with it. I must be going wrong somewhere, but I just cannot find where??
Click to expand...

One of the main reasons I switched over to the F12-X200 in a guitar cabinet was because as hard as I tried to like FRFR setups, all of them where still just a PA speaker with a proprietary EQ curve applied by the maker of the cabinet. I still have two CLR that just do stage monitor duty for the singers these days and a XiTone mbritt that is pretty damn good. However, I like Marshall tones. Not necessarily high gain, just a good classic warm crispiness that I can only seem to get from greenbacks or G12-65 speakers in a traditional 4x12. Distortion through a tweeter just does not work for my ears. So I started using regular guitar speakers in guitar cabs on stage powered with the GT1000FX.

Then I discovered that was somewhat limiting for me in different scenarios e.g. low volume, mid volume, high volume, room reflections. The tone changes a bit in all the different use models. As I would try to do minor EQ tweaks at the global EQ, I would find that traditional guitar speakers with their limited range would not be as responsive to the sleight EQ changes. If you need to do major EQ like more than 2db between 125hz and 8Khz, then something else is wrong - get another IR.

So I went with the F12-X200 and have been the most satisfied that I have ever been in the world of IR usage. After I settle on an IR, the speaker/cabinet combination is very tweakable to every way that I use it. A sleight drop at 250hz kills any mud. A sleight bump at 4Khz bring me forward in the mix. I am very happy now.

The other thing that helped me was to stop stressing over what IR I am using. Just because I like a greenback does not mean that all of the greenback IRs sound good to me. Frankly, a lot of them just sound dark and bad to me. I now turn the dial on IRs without looking at them until I find something that gives me the balance and clarity that I like for a given guitar tone. Then I EQ to perfection and get back to playing. I am often surprised by what IR I actually settle on.

YMMV...
 
Brett,

Your reasons for choosing this speaker are almost identical to mine. However you seem to know how to extract the best from it while I have tried every conceivable permutation and drawn a blank.

I only chose the Celestion Greenback as a pure example. The point I was trying to make is that no matter which IR I use I cannot get the F12 to sound anywhere as good as a real speaker.

Would you say the F12 has the capability to sound as good as a well made conventional speaker in your opinion?
 
Well, that is a good question. My experience and been that it can get pretty damn close given the very same cabinets are being used. They won't be exact because they physically are not exact. But I have found that the F12 plays and responds more to my expectations of a guitar speaker because of the flat cone (not curved like the woofer of a PA) and the lighter materials and surround. There is just clarity and separation in the bass frequencies that I could never get from a true FRFR speaker. No matter how I applied EQ, there was still a bland bass note. Not a woody tone at all. The F12 responds more like my guitar speakers. Currently, I am running the Shiva 1x12 IR that comes with the Axe. I am pretty sure it is a V30 speaker IR since Shiva's come with V30 speakers. Then I tweak the EQ to taste and I am satisfied with the tone.

Can you say what frequencies are bothering you the most? Is it too bloated and muddy or is it thin and crackly sounding to you? What amps and tones are you going for? I am sure the tone is in there for you. Some folks get lucky and drop in at F12 and say it's great. Other need to work a little for the tone in there head. Knowing how to use the tools to get the tone is more than half the battle.

I do have to say that you kind of have to condition your ears to not hearing a guitar speaker. As guitarists, we have gotten used to the sound limitations of traditional guitars speakers that are nothing more than a low pass filter - and a poor one. But they can sure sound good.

This we try FRFR or and F12 that is reasonably flat across a certain range and we start hearing things we've never heard before. We either readjust our ears to get used to it or we EQ to turn the F12 into the poor low pass filter that it is replacing 😁
 
You don't appear to sound super confident that the F12 performs as well as a traditional speaker?

You say Pretty Close as opposed to on par or equally as good.

That in turn suggests to me that you are not entirely convinced the F12 is as good.

Whilst I understand that there will be differences in tonality due to the difference in materials and construction etc.

What I cannot get my head around is why you need a tweeter in a guitar speaker that is supposed to be mimicking guitar speakers???

No conventional guitar speaker will ever produce frequencies higher than 8000hz so why have a tweeter in the F12.

As far as comparing apples with apples..... If you blind tested the F12 against a high quality guitar speaker. As I have done time and again over and over, the traditional speaker wins hands down everytime.

Its not really a matter of which frequencies I think are missing necessarily, to me, if the speaker sounds inferior, no amount of tweaking can seem to eliminate the fact that I cannot get it to sound as good as a proper guitar speaker if that makes sense?

If you had two identical cabinets and placed a blanket over one of them and I asked you to make the one with the blanket sound as good as the one without. You would say it cant be done right?

This is what happens when I place the F12 next to guitar speaker with identical Axe fx settings. I accept that parameters might need to change to make the F12 sound as good but no matter what ive tried it just doesn't cut it?

So why do guys seem to have so much joy with this speaker and I don't?

We have the exactly the same gear???
 
neale dunham said:
As far as comparing apples with apples..... If you blind tested the F12 against a high quality guitar speaker. As I have done time and again over and over, the traditional speaker wins hands down everytime.
Click to expand...
One is a guitar speaker and the other is not. Why would expect them to sound even close to each other?

Guitar speakers each have unique EQ curves and an FRFR speaker is (attempting to be) flat.

An FRFR speaker when used with a modeler needs an IR, which models a mic'd speaker into a mic preamp. That is never going to sound like a guitar speaker cabinet in the same room.
 
neale dunham said:
What I cannot get my head around is why you need a tweeter in a guitar speaker that is supposed to be mimicking guitar speakers???
Click to expand...

In order to reproduce a sound accurately, the frequency response of the reproducing system needs to be wider than the item being reproduced. Since the IR imparts the response of the particular speaker/mic, the speaker reproducing it needs to be as flat and full-range as possible to avoid coloring the sound of the IR.
 
neale dunham said:
You don't appear to sound super confident that the F12 performs as well as a traditional speaker?

You say Pretty Close as opposed to on par or equally as good.

That in turn suggests to me that you are not entirely convinced the F12 is as good.

Whilst I understand that there will be differences in tonality due to the difference in materials and construction etc.

What I cannot get my head around is why you need a tweeter in a guitar speaker that is supposed to be mimicking guitar speakers???

No conventional guitar speaker will ever produce frequencies higher than 8000hz so why have a tweeter in the F12.

As far as comparing apples with apples..... If you blind tested the F12 against a high quality guitar speaker. As I have done time and again over and over, the traditional speaker wins hands down everytime.

Its not really a matter of which frequencies I think are missing necessarily, to me, if the speaker sounds inferior, no amount of tweaking can seem to eliminate the fact that I cannot get it to sound as good as a proper guitar speaker if that makes sense?

If you had two identical cabinets and placed a blanket over one of them and I asked you to make the one with the blanket sound as good as the one without. You would say it cant be done right?

This is what happens when I place the F12 next to guitar speaker with identical Axe fx settings. I accept that parameters might need to change to make the F12 sound as good but no matter what ive tried it just doesn't cut it?

So why do guys seem to have so much joy with this speaker and I don't?

We have the exactly the same gear???
Click to expand...

I get your point - I really do. I have put a lot of time and money into solving the very same frustrations when trying to replicate what I hear from my JCM800 and 4x12 1982 cab with original G12-80 speakers. It's the voice of God in my opinion - but only at an unrealistic volume that I don't get to use much these days.

So to answer the question directly, No - the F12 is not exactly like the actual guitar speaker. But it is a hell of a lot more pleasing to me than a PA speaker disguised as a FRFR guitar rig. It just responds better to me in the same way that a guitar speaker does. In addition, the IR running through it sounds the same as what I send to the mains. So when I step out in front of the mains, I'm not totally horrified at what I am hearing - very similar tones. I like the F12 as a monitor because it seems to behave and play like a guitar speaker. PA speakers don't seem to be able to compress some irritating frequencies when you need to dig into the strings.

Overall I am happy with the direction it took. I may have gotten a little lucky by have some cabinets around that it seems to behave well in. I do admit that when I first powered one up, I was a little underwhelmed - but it was not a horrible sound like you are experiencing. Then I out a little more time into understanding how to EQ it and the different volumes I play at and I because a believer. Probably because I am just tired of spending time on the issue and need to get back to focusing on the band 😁
 
Great Words Brett,

Im Glad you have found something that works in the capacity that you are working in.

Now you have outlined your application for the F12, all becomes a little clearer.

I am not able to send a signal to a Front of house PA. My band is just not big enough for that. I purely use backline only. Therefore I need every ounce of tone I can get as its all I got!

That said, at least I've learnt something here, that the F12 is not going to perform as well as a conventional speaker might. Now I can move on and put this to rest.

As I said at the outset, I couldn't work out wher I was going wrong with the F12 and through your honesty and careful descriptions it seems that the F12 will not be for me in my current application.

I don't think I will part company with it just yet, You never know whats around the corner!
 
neale dunham said:
Great Words Brett,

Im Glad you have found something that works in the capacity that you are working in.

Now you have outlined your application for the F12, all becomes a little clearer.

I am not able to send a signal to a Front of house PA. My band is just not big enough for that. I purely use backline only. Therefore I need every ounce of tone I can get as its all I got!

That said, at least I've learnt something here, that the F12 is not going to perform as well as a conventional speaker might. Now I can move on and put this to rest.

As I said at the outset, I couldn't work out wher I was going wrong with the F12 and through your honesty and careful descriptions it seems that the F12 will not be for me in my current application.

I don't think I will part company with it just yet, You never know whats around the corner!
Click to expand...

I am glad that you were able to benefit from the discussion Neale.

I jumped when I thought you might be wanted to get another one and pair them up. I didn't think it would be a good investment at this time.

If I could get away with just a backline and some decent stage volume, I would probably just use one of my favorite guitar cabs and speakers.

Good luck on your tone journey and lets us know where you land 👍
 
Thanks for stopping me Brett...……

I think I will soldier on with my Axe 3 Matrix Gt800 and Ej1250 speaker.

Haven't managed to surpass that yet!

Although it would be nice to one day achieve what I thought this speaker would offer..... A multitude of speaker emulations performed by a single driver.

Kinda like an Axe fx, but for speakers...…..:)
 
I find the F12 the closest thing to a conventional rig you are going to get so far but it is quite sensitive to the cab you have it in and the power amp really matters too.
 
True that!

I have one one each in a pair of Forte 3D 1x12 cabs. They perform very well and sound huge. The are 22"x19"x14".

The I have one in an old matrix Q12A powered cab that in 19"x16"x12". It has two front ports and does sound smaller but still sounds good to me when I boost 125hz and 63hz about 2db.

The tones are there for me and I won't be pulling them out. Beyond a feed to the FOH, I will not be using a PA speaker on stage or home anymore.
 
I've been pretty curious about this speaker for a while. Is it sensitive to the power amp used?
 
I have only used Matrix SS power amps - the GT1000 and the GM50. No problems at all but I do make sure I have the proper gain staging so there is not risk of clipping in the amp.

Others seem to have varying issues depending on the cabinet they use, but it's hard to tell what is going on with statements like "Sounds terrible...".

I have seen YouTube videos where the user is boasting about the great sound they get from a tube power amp and a real guitar cab and I think it sounds terrible...
 
Brett336 said:
I have only used Matrix SS power amps - the GT1000 and the GM50. No problems at all but I do make sure I have the proper gain staging so there is not risk of clipping in the amp.

Others seem to have varying issues depending on the cabinet they use, but it's hard to tell what is going on with statements like "Sounds terrible...".

I have seen YouTube videos where the user is boasting about the great sound they get from a tube power amp and a real guitar cab and I think it sounds terrible...
Click to expand...
It is super cab sensitive . In a mesa it was bassy and indistinct but in Xitone passive wedges it was the best FR FR I've come across.
 
VHT 2/50/2 and 2U GT1000FG ,The VHT is great and almost neutral enough to use power sims. The Xitone are not ported.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom