Just can't get FRFR vs amp/cab to work for me?

I'll admit to being a little perplexed about the need for 'good' onstage sound to be honest (and I'm not slamming anyone here).
Back in the 80's, when I first started playing out yeah, because we were using our stacks to supplement the PA but I haven't had to deal with that since the mid 90's or so.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I really don't care WHAT I sound like onstage so long as what's demolishing the hearing of the crowd sounds like what I want (which is a big part of what I love about the Axe-FX).
Hell, I even stopped using my FRFR monitors onstage a few months ago and just use my IEM's or wedges (depending on the show) and I honestly haven't been troubled in the slightest.
 
Two CLR's in backline mode can easily compete with a Marshall 100w head into a single 4x12. It rattles the room. I would say it produces more usable low end than the Marshall half stack.

Absolutely...I have two CLR's and they can more then hold their own with a 100W head and 4x12. Even one CLR 'moves air'. Fortunately, I don't need to play that loud anymore...
 
I'll admit to being a little perplexed about the need for 'good' onstage sound to be honest (and I'm not slamming anyone here).
Back in the 80's, when I first started playing out yeah, because we were using our stacks to supplement the PA but I haven't had to deal with that since the mid 90's or so.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I really don't care WHAT I sound like onstage so long as what's demolishing the hearing of the crowd sounds like what I want (which is a big part of what I love about the Axe-FX).
Hell, I even stopped using my FRFR monitors onstage a few months ago and just use my IEM's or wedges (depending on the show) and I honestly haven't been troubled in the slightest.

+1 with everything above!
 
I also think the "moving air" reasoning is a myth.

Two CLR's in backline mode can easily compete with a Marshall 100w head into a single 4x12. It rattles the room. I would say it produces more usable low end than the Marshall half stack.

I agree w/ this.. I've run the Axe FX w/ a pair of CLR's in a band mix w/ other guitar players using various tube amps (all un-miced) and the Axe/CLR rig can hang with or even best the tube amp setups. It takes some effort though to get there if you're just transitioning from traditional cabs to FRFR.. at least it did for me. But I can see it not appealing for some.. I still love using open-back combo tune amps; the CLR setup does not replicate that "in-the-room" open-back sound per say.
 
Sorry, I'm not following you. What's "bulk motion?"

No worries, by 'bulk motion' I should have used wavefront(s) (with *some* coherence in the waves for certain frequencies in the 4x12 case, and less so in the PA case). This necessarily creates different acoustical responses within the room.
 
I think a typical PA speaker will be more coherent than four separate speakers spaced a foot away from each other.
 
I'll admit to being a little perplexed about the need for 'good' onstage sound to be honest (and I'm not slamming anyone here). Back in the 80's, when I first started playing out yeah, because we were using our stacks to supplement the PA but I haven't had to deal with that since the mid 90's or so. Maybe I'm just weird, but I really don't care WHAT I sound like onstage so long as what's demolishing the hearing of the crowd sounds like what I want (which is a big part of what I love about the Axe-FX). Hell, I even stopped using my FRFR monitors onstage a few months ago and just use my IEM's or wedges (depending on the show) and I honestly haven't been troubled in the slightest.
I have to enjoy what I hear and play. Each their own....
 
Sorry, I'm not following you. What's "bulk motion?"



True, different speakers will sound different at different angles.



Methinks the horse changed breeds somewhere during the discussion. :)

I think a typical PA speaker will be more coherent than four separate speakers spaced a foot away from each other.

Coherence of waves, not coherence/clarity of sound.
 
The two are related.

I don't think I can explain it adequately to you. By its nature, a dispersing horn is a diffuse source whereas four similar drivers (with 1/4 wavelength acoustical addition) pushing a narrow range of frequencies will drive audio into a room quite differently.
 
Agreed. It'll be different, with less coherence (unless you're dead-center, staring down the bore of the cab).
 
I'll admit to being a little perplexed about the need for 'good' onstage sound to be honest (and I'm not slamming anyone here).
Back in the 80's, when I first started playing out yeah, because we were using our stacks to supplement the PA but I haven't had to deal with that since the mid 90's or so.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I really don't care WHAT I sound like onstage so long as what's demolishing the hearing of the crowd sounds like what I want (which is a big part of what I love about the Axe-FX).
Hell, I even stopped using my FRFR monitors onstage a few months ago and just use my IEM's or wedges (depending on the show) and I honestly haven't been troubled in the slightest.


I don't really care at this point either -- circumstances made me go FOH (we are starting to play larger corp gigs 300-500 people). I have my own mix in the monitor so I can make the guitar a little hotter -- however I still have (out of habit) a QSC K10 behind me with a guitar only signal -- makes me feel better. For bar/club dates (I call them paid rehearsals) I still take out a small amp -- again (out of habit) -- don't really need to -- when the board version of the AXE comes out -- I suspect it will replace the amp at the club gigs as well.
 
Good for you! Move on... I personally liked the frfr route with very little tweaking and saw what it could do, but there is Soul in a regular cab I dig more!
Now I combine them!
Output1 is frfr, output2 is reg cab. I love this setup and can tune in any stage, any room, any guitar... At least give this a try before you retire your frfr ideas!


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1 out to cab and 1 output to pa is a good way to help. I have the same problem. My Axe (standard) was always missing something visceral to me whether i ran it through studio mons, a pa, or various cabs. One thing i noticed was that in ALL of my patches i went with the thiel cab and royer 121 sims to get a close a i could to what I'm looking for. Best i got was that combo with a PAIR of Tech21 PEs (a single one still didn't get what i was looking for) So I'm building a thiel cab with a vintage evm12l tabs possibly a Mitchell donut o see how that sounds. Hopefully i will have the sound that i tend towards with the more, umm, immediate feel, opposed to a patch that sounds like a recorded cab? If that doesn't work in thinking of going the fearful 12/6/1 route (since i will be running some bad frequency sounds anyway). Then i can take that sound, add a cab in and through studio mons tweak a direct to pa version of the same patch. I don't run too many of the Axes fx (i still like my pedals better) save reverb or delay, so hopefully that will save on cpu cycles to allow me to run those 2 outs w/o pegging that old cpu. :)
 
I have to enjoy what I hear and play. Each their own....
I apologize if this is considered a necrobump (I don't 'play forums' a lot), I just wanted to say that I wasn't trying to imply anyone was wrong or right in regards to my above post, I agree, 'to each their own'.

I just meant that, onstage is totally different for me than while in the studio, where I'll be much pickier about how I sound.
Onstage, I enjoy not worrying about how I sound to ME, I have faith in my Axe-FX and my (well...GENERALLY) sound guys so regardless of how I sound onstage or in my IEM's, I KNOW that what's demolishing the hearing of the crowds I play to is the sound I want, and to me, that's the biggest pressure relief I could possibly imagine.
 
Tried CLR and recently used an EV powered monitor(ZLX12P). Thinking the FRFR just isn't me. Throwing in the cabinet parameters, in addition to the amp ones, is daunting and too many variables and options. Spent hours really fine tuning and reading then brought to practice and just left me "mehh". I tweak at rehearsal volume with latest firmware 20. I know tweaking at home and then bring to practice with band are 2 different things, but this was more than that. Even bought 3 different cab packs!

I know it's preference...just amazed so many love this route? Wasn't full and was quite thin. So many parameters to twiddle with made it quite the chore to do at home, let alone try and re-do on the fly at rehearsal.

I hear you... I have an EV - ZLX12, which I really didn't buy for using with the Axe, but I tried it just to see what it sounded like. While it wasn't the worst thing I've heard, as you mentioned, it was very thin, bright and harsh. I compared it to an AccuGroove Latte FRFR cab, it was no contest.

I mentioned this before in another thread... The EV - ZLX12 is a good product, but it is exactly what it is... "a monitor". This is an important point one needs to ask themselves, what is the goal? Do I need a monitor, or a backline? I see this time and time again in here, and it leads to confusion and frustration. Ask yourself what you really want to accomplish then scale accordingly.

IMHO, if you want FRFR cabinets that will perform "more" like a real backline cabinet you need to make the investment and go all in. That's what I've found, your quest may conclude otherwise.

It's also worth noting with FRFR cabinets raising them in the air (like on a pole or stand) is not a good idea, you lose the bottom end that you would normal get with a real cabinet. Most people don't realize the bottom-end missing is coming through the floor, which is another reason why a real cabinet has such great bottom end in most cases. I always try to have at least one FRFR cabinet on the floor (I usually stack them). Also, I found hardwood floors sound the best IMHO.

Nothing wrong with using real cabinets either, it's still a great option.

Bottom-line: Right tool for the right job!
 
Tried CLR and recently used an EV powered monitor(ZLX12P). Thinking the FRFR just isn't me. Throwing in the cabinet parameters, in addition to the amp ones, is daunting and too many variables and options. Spent hours really fine tuning and reading then brought to practice and just left me "mehh". I tweak at rehearsal volume with latest firmware 20. I know tweaking at home and then bring to practice with band are 2 different things, but this was more than that. Even bought 3 different cab packs!

I know it's preference...just amazed so many love this route? Wasn't full and was quite thin. So many parameters to twiddle with made it quite the chore to do at home, let alone try and re-do on the fly at rehearsal.

I played with FRFR for awhile and tried to get in to it. In the end it didn't really work for me...and I went back to my power amp and 4x12 cab. Sounds better overall to me. I tried several different powered speakers with different IR's, cab packs etc....and couldn't get comfortable with it.
 
I stopped messing with tons of tweaks when I the IR's that I liked.

When I bought Cab Pack 8 I realized how crucial the cab is. Sounds great with in ears or FRFR and obviously throught the front of house. Have you guys tried Yek's PEQ trick? It simulates the mid boost of a real cab: 770 Hz, .350 for the Q, and 4 db of gain
I use that PEQ block for my JBL when I'm home. I use the same PEQ settings on the monitor board for my guitar's channel, because my band runs in ear monitors.
 
Trancegodz&Trumanti..Thank you your comments..Thought I was going crazy!!! Same experience here with a Mission Engineering Gemini.. Boxy, midrangey, small, harsh... I'm used to my studio monitors for reference...I thought that the Gemini would be like the monitors but louder..Nope.
 
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