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June 15, 2022. The day the Kemper Profiler patent expires.

As a point of interest, since there have been SOME people who have asked why only Kemper has profiling ability, it will interest at least those people to know that the patent that covers the Kemper Profiler expires on June 15, 2022, or so it appears based on the results of some patent searches I've done.

I will be curious to see how long it takes before competitors (and of course Fractal Audio being the first and best among them) to release their own version of the profiling function, if they even bother.

I will speculate that IF Fractal decides to do it, they'll do it with a system that is more thorough, comprehensive, and accurate than the Kemper system.

The Kemper system is pretty minimalist. It assumes certain tone stack values which may have nothing to do with reality. I'm not even attempting to look at it from any kind of a technical interpretation, but it seems to me that the Kemper starts with a pretty generic amplifier representation.

I'd guess that the Fractal approach to the same concept would have you adjust more controls while the Fractal unit doing the profiling (whatever it may be) listens to the effects of those controls, analyzes them, and generates a more accurate model of the amp's behavior than the Kemper units ever could.

I'd also guess that this would not be a feature that would be added to an existing Fractal product, but would instead be designed into a completely new product.
 

USMC_Trev

Fractal Fanatic
Why would Fractal waste a single minute doing anything with an inferior modeling technology? Their entire architecture is based on mathematical circuit reproduction, with a tone match feature on the Axe-FX II and III and it's a damn sight better sounding than anything Kemper has done.
 
Fractal could take profiling to the next level. WAY beyond Kemper's fairly rudimentary profiling.

I have some amps that Fractal has never modelled. But I'd like to have their tones in my Fractal. I now that isn't going to happen,
as there's zero chance that any such profiling system will be added to legacy products. But the point is easy enough to understand.
 
Profiling captures the sound of the amplifier being profiled.

Tone match is an automated system of matching the EQ curve of an amp model to a reference signal, as I understand it.
It is not a feature I've personally used but of course it is in my Axe-FX.

I'm sure Fractal has documentation available on this forum that explains tone match in great detail.
 

USMC_Trev

Fractal Fanatic
How is 'profiling' different than 'tone match?' Seriously. (I haven't used either.)
Fractal tone match makes an impulse response (IR) of the sound heard. It's basically an EQ that rounds out the sound you already have. You still need to have a preset with the right amp model and cab IR with the right settings and effects of the sounds you're trying to get close to. It's a tone helper, not the entirety of the tone, as Kemper profiling is.
 

Admin M@

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
If I recall correctly, Kemper also has a second version of that patent with a later expiration date.

I'm not personally interested in it, since I believe as do many others that the Fractal Audio approach produces superior results. It's other companies who will probably jump in and exploit that opening, because "profiling" is, as I understand things, easier to implement than what Cliff does. In fact we're already seeing this, with other devices using the same basic approach and producing similar results.
 

electronpirate

Axe-Master
Frankly, like Line6, the Kemper has a place in the market. Others will be quick to jump in. It's easy, with a good profile you can cover alot of ground, with 6 good profiles it may be all that anyone needs.

As far as I know, even when the patent expires, they still get money from others?

R
 

USMC_Trev

Fractal Fanatic
Frankly, like Line6, the Kemper has a place in the market. Others will be quick to jump in. It's easy, with a good profile you can cover alot of ground, with 6 good profiles it may be all that anyone needs.

As far as I know, even when the patent expires, they still get money from others?

R
Copyright and licensing are on different timelines, so yeah. Just because one patent turns into a pumpkin doesn't mean that there aren't others that supersede the original and everything is suddenly public domain or free or anything like that. Intellectual property is still a thing.
 
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Tonedeaf

Experienced
They can't simply renew the patent? I've heard stories of companies makng the mistake of forgetting to renew their patent, leading others free to make the product themselves.
 

Romo82

Inspired
Profiling is essentially making a filter from a recording of a sound. It's the modeling equivalent of a kazoo and autotune got drunk and had a kid.
That, is brilliant! :tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:

I've only really seen the Kemper as a kind of archiving method for people that have a huge collection of amps that they want to have mobile access to without the logistics. I'm sure I'm missing many factors or over simplifying my understanding but is it correct that the "Profile" is a set replication of the sound at that moment so the EQ etc. is fixed and any alterations is post process manipulation?
 
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A patent is not renewable. It grants 17 years of exclusive rights to make your patented product without others copying it. (Not legally, anyway.) After that, the patented design is fair game to competitors.

But you have to be careful to ensure that if you copy an expired patent, that you aren't infringing upon one that's still in effect. Considering that frequently, patent holders apply for and receive a sequence of patents that are all closely related and even overlap on what is covered, it's very important to do a comprehensive search to be sure that you don't run afoul of one of those OTHER patents.
 

fcs101

Fractal Fanatic
I'm not personally interested in it, since I believe as do many others that the Fractal Audio approach produces superior results.
That's where I am on profiling/capturing. Full disclosure: I haven't used one to this point so my opinion is strictly based off of input from others.

I see profiling as most useful to someone who actually has access to the gear. Take my favorite amp model, Tucana 3, I'd much rather be able to fully manipulate an excellent algorithm than use someone else's capture and only be able to adjust very limited settings.
 
I echo the comments above. Except...there is no Fractal model available to download for some amps that I own or have owned. This is the usage case where profiling makes sense. Profiling can certainly be "good enough" for gigging, as evidenced by the fact that even some very big name players use profilers.

I think modelling is a superior approach but when that model isn't available, profiling is the next best thing if you won't gig your vintage equipment.
 

fcs101

Fractal Fanatic
I echo the comments above. Except...there is no Fractal model available to download for some amps that I own or have owned. This is the usage case where profiling makes sense. Profiling can certainly be "good enough" for gigging, as evidenced by the fact that even some very big name players use profilers.

I think modelling is a superior approach but when that model isn't available, profiling is the next best thing if you won't gig your vintage equipment.
I can see that, makes sense.

Since you're the OP, I'd ask if you'd seen any reviews of the Quad Cortex's ability as a profiler? My understanding is that the QC is superior to Kemper.
 
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