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JP15 Tuning Stability

I just bought a brand new JP15 - build date is Aug 26, 2020. I switched to 9's and re set-up the guitar the day it arrived. Neck relief is 0.005" ish and the claw is reset to level the bridge perfectly (I did this with a dial indicator) and the pivot posts are level. The guitar plays beautifully.

If bend the G string at the 12th up a whole step, it knocks the whole guitar out of tune. One flick of the bar and everything comes back pretty close. Pushing the string(s) behind the nut does not return it to tune, only a flick of the bar will return it

I called EBMM and Joel gave me a list of things to do/try. It included lightly cleaning up the nut slots with 800 grit paper, switching to (2) springs in a V pattern, and lubing the nut with graphite. I've lubed the pivot posts, saddles (behind piezo) and nut. I've tried everything, all to no avail.

Most of the problem is in the bridge not returning to home after a bent note -

I don't want to ship it back to EBMM but I'm almost ready to do it. Joel said that was fine if I wanted, but a cross country shipping adventure isn't something I want to do.

Is anybody playing 9's on a JP15 without tuning every 30 seconds? Is there a trick in the setup to make them work?
 

Kamil Kisiel

Power User
IMO it's the nature of the beast with those kind of trems, you see lots of players using them that way.. always depressing the bar after doing anything really bendy. Someone in @unix-guy's thread linked to this post by John Suhr that explains it: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...f-floating-trems.2007062/page-8#post-27778000

Adding more spring tension will help because the bridge will move less when you bend. It's one reason why I prefer to have my non-locking trems be dive-only as it pretty much eliminates this problem. For free-floating I prefer double-locking trems.
 

Andy Eagle

Experienced
The G and bass E move on the saddle on non locking bridges if you go slack enough .If the sting moves at all on the saddle or in the block it will not stay in tune. The solution is the new Wilkinson locking saddles or don't go that low. This is after you fix all other issues ( nut string, trees, tuners etc.)
 

guitarnerdswe

Fractal Fanatic
When tuning, make sure you always pull up on the bar first. Same when you use the bar when playing, always remember to pull up before letting go of the bar. This way, the g and E strings will (mostly) return to their correct spots in the saddles. John Suhr hipped me to this, I think he got it from Jeff Beck.
 

skunc

Experienced
it's actually down.

I agree with you Andy.... but-Several pro players bump the trems up while tuning.

after soloing, I always find a way to tap the bar slightly, up or down depending on your choice, (inaudibly usually) to reset the string tension. Everything returns to zero!
 
Thanks to all for responses.

It has locking tuners and with the piezo locking saddles are a no go

I've worked on the nut, lightly cleaning it up with 800 grit paper and lubing per EBMM recommendation. I made a short video at their request to show how it was going out of tune on a one-step G string bend at the 12th. I showed a light tap on the bar would return tuning. Without tapping the bar and hitting an open D chord, it would be out of tune enough to warble very noticeably.

Their response? "it's not that bad really" -- ugh. In their defense, my buddy as 2 older Charvel neck-thru guitars with floating Floyd Rose double locking trems. To our amazement, both his guitars do the exact same thing on G string bends

10's behave much better than 9's (more tension). I can't and won't play 10's though. Wrist problems from decades of playing make the increased tension and added effort painful. I can't do a 3 hour show like that, plus I really like the brightness of the 9's

I've made some progress as it's better than it was initially with 9's. My last resort is to block for down only. Stopping the bridge from moving on bends will almost completely fix it. I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet though. A light tap on the bar is something I can get used to if it consistently brings it back in tune
 

unix-guy

Legend!
Their response? "it's not that bad really" -- ugh. In their defense, my buddy as 2 older Charvel neck-thru guitars with floating Floyd Rose double locking trems. To our amazement, both his guitars do the exact same thing on G string bends
Probably his knife edges or posts (or both) are worn or dirty. A bit of lube may help.

Also, could be the posts do not "lock" and it is actually be shifting the bridge due to "slop" in the threads.

For your guitar did you try using 3 springs?
 
Probably his knife edges or posts (or both) are worn or dirty. A bit of lube may help.

Also, could be the posts do not "lock" and it is actually be shifting the bridge due to "slop" in the threads.

For your guitar did you try using 3 springs?

Agree on posts moving. The EBMM posts don't lock

It came with 10's and (3) springs and that was terrible with 9's. EBMM told me to use (2) in a "V" pattern for 9's. That helped quite a bit.

So far, lube has helped some but has been short lived. I have 2 Soloists (one is a newer custom shop) and I blocked both of them for down only. After a couple of outdoor shows last summer, the problems with floating Floyds came back to memory and I "down-only" blocked them both. Neither of them do this now. Ultimately, this may the only true fix

10's hardly exhibit the behavior

After a lot of trial an error on set up, I've got 9's behaving like 10's. It's workable if it stays that way for a while. Seems like things are great for a couple of hours of play then for some reason it has come back before

I don't think there's anything wrong with my buddies Charvels - IMHO it's because they're floating. I think it's inherent in the design and setup we use (non-locking posts too)
 

guitarnerdswe

Fractal Fanatic
Locking posts IMHO don't make a big difference in stability. They're mainly there to make sure the posts don't move in height when removing the bridge.

I've had locking Gotoh trems with and without locking posts and both were equally stable.
 

Andy Eagle

Experienced
That is a very specific set of circumstances involving a finger bend on the G and by pull it back he means the string because he's just gone flat. For normal use down is easier to keep in tune but you can use up just as long as that is what you always do every time you use the bar or go out of tune because of a string bend. Also Jeff's bar is angled up quite a bit so his bar will be more likely to stick down than up. Most of the time the plate is parallel on modern non locking bridges or only a small rise at the back so down is more stable . The principal is the same either way though and it is not necessary if your knife edges are good and the studs are working as they should. Even a worn Floyd can have this indistinct floating point and require a touch down (or up) to be at equilibrium .
 

Andy Eagle

Experienced
Locking posts IMHO don't make a big difference in stability. They're mainly there to make sure the posts don't move in height when removing the bridge.

I've had locking Gotoh trems with and without locking posts and both were equally stable.
But the Gotoh posts and inserts are particularly good so it is less of an issue with those than some brands. Also only Gotoh make locking trem posts.
 

guitarnerdswe

Fractal Fanatic
That is a very specific set of circumstances involving a finger bend on the G and by pull it back he means the string because he's just gone flat. For normal use down is easier to keep in tune but you can use up just as long as that is what you always do every time you use the bar or go out of tune because of a string bend. Also Jeff's bar is angled up quite a bit so his bar will be more likely to stick down than up. Most of the time the plate is parallel on modern non locking bridges or only a small rise at the back so down is more stable . The principal is the same either way though and it is not necessary if your knife edges are good and the studs are working as they should. Even a worn Floyd can have this indistinct floating point and require a touch down (or up) to be at equilibrium .
With pull it, he means back/up on the bar. The issue I have with pushing down on the bar and then tuning, is that finger bends will cause the note to go flat, requiring you to push down the bar again after every bend on the g string.

When pulling the bar up and then tuning, finger bending won't pull the string out of tune. You just have to remember that after doing a dive bomb, you have to pull the bar up or do a big finger bend on the g string.
 

guitarnerdswe

Fractal Fanatic
Your describing a problem with the nut sticking not the knife edges finding their zero point .
I'm describing the string slipping over the saddle.

Here's a good video of what happens of when you push down on the bar before tuning:


If you instead pull up before tuning, the g string doesn't go flat from finger bends. It instead goes sharp when dive bombing. That's what John was talking about in his posts, and has done several more times. Here are 3 more times:

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...been-hinting-at.1963152/page-39#post-29318892

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...es-now-available.2050987/page-2#post-29644301

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...f-floating-trems.2007062/page-5#post-27773001

I'm not trying to discredit you or something, but Johns statements totally echo my own experiences with non locking 2 point trems. Tuning after a pull up is IMHO, far more practical than the other way around.
 
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