Wish Jazz Amps

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Just a tip: don't waste your breath arguing with people on here. Anything that falls outside [current product, current firmware] is heresy. Suggesting that the product is lacking in any way at all is heresy. [current product, current firmware] is the be all end all, until the next one comes out. It's been like that since forever.

Of course if Cliff Chase should decide to model a Henriksen or Polytone some time, the same people will hail it as the second coming of Christ.

Just leave your wish here and don't bother engaging, seriously.
THIS!
Love your contribution and wisdom, I'm too new here to get it on my own :)

"Of course if Cliff Chase should decide to model a Henriksen or Polytone some time, the same people will hail it as the second coming of Christ."
I want to be your friend!!! :) :)
 
The problem is that you are wrong about most jazz guitarists not using tube amps. With the expection of a few like Joe Pass, Pat Martino and Pasquale Grasso most use tube amps, often Fenders.

I agree with you that the jazz chorus is a horrible amp for jazz though.

Tube amps do not distort if you use the correct settings, and if you turn down the treble and bass the mids will get fuller.

Jazz guitarists that use fender tube amps: Jonathan Kreisberg, Peter Bernstein, Lage lund, Mike Moreno, Julian Lage, Mike Walker, George Benson, Gilad Hekselman, Bruce Forman, John Scofield and many others.

What do you think of this sound? This is a fender princeton.


thanks for reply
most of (great) players you named dont use classical jazz tone, someone are definitively into rock tone.
 
thanks for reply
most of (great) players you named dont use classical jazz tone, someone are definitively into rock tone.
Some of them do, but many of them have both classic jazz tones and others.


I do agree that having more solid state amps in the Fractal as an option would be a good thing though, but with the right settings there's many option for classical jazz tones with the existing amps.
 
Just a tip: don't waste your breath arguing with people on here. Anything that falls outside [current product, current firmware] is heresy. Suggesting that the product is lacking in any way at all is heresy. [current product, current firmware] is the be all end all, until the next one comes out. It's been like that since forever.

THIS!
Love your contribution and wisdom, I'm too new here to get it on my own :)

"Of course if Cliff Chase should decide to model a Henriksen or Polytone some time, the same people will hail it as the second coming of Christ."

I want to be your friend!!! :) :)
With respect, the list of amps modelled isn't a secret. I'm sure you read through it carefully before buying the product. I know I did!

You've started three threads on this topic. In the most recent, you attempt to dictate which responses are "permitted". Is it really so horrible to say that the product is what it is (for now), and to suggest some workarounds that might get you most of what you need?
 
For any wishes to add new amp models, I suggest posting also 1. the schematic, and 2. how Fractal can acquire the real counterpart of the target amp. As Cliff at least needs them to model an amp, sharing these 2 may help him feel less difficult to start working on, if not guaranteed to be implemented.
 
For any wishes to add new amp models, I suggest posting also 1. the schematic, and 2. how Fractal can acquire the real counterpart of the target amp. As Cliff at least needs them to model an amp, sharing these 2 may help him feel less difficult to start working on, if not guaranteed to be implemented.

This is 100% correct.… Without those work/resources it cannot happen.

If you want to see these amplifiers modeled, then you need to send Cliff a real amplifier example to model/measure and the factory schematics.
 
With respect, the list of amps modelled isn't a secret. I'm sure you read through it carefully before buying the product. I know I did!

You've started three threads on this topic. In the most recent, you attempt to dictate which responses are "permitted". Is it really so horrible to say that the product is what it is (for now), and to suggest some workarounds that might get you most of what you need?

Hello and thanks for reply! I appreciated.
Yes, I'm new and started threads (I asked if it was wrong place just move/tell me) about jazz guitar.

I'm submitting to the community the issue of a real jazz amp (the ones that jazz players use in real life) modeled. In italian we say 'asking is legit, answering is courtesy'.
My threads got many pages and started interesting discussion and tips about jazz tone, I guess it'sa a good think; I hope Fractal moderators would think the same.
Of course I checked and didnt see amps addressed to jazz, but being Fractal pointed as the BEST modeler out there, I guess Fractal should be happy that people choose it anyway and then try to address a specific problem.

Finally, it's not about 'permitted' answers: after reading many many threads on this forum and knowing the type of answers usually they got, I just tried to address discussion better (like avoid indicating jazzers with a rock-ish sound or solutions that are not solutions, like 'dont use an amp' or 'use a rock amp set clean') and I did my best to explain why those solutions are out of topic. Let me know where you think I missed the point or was not fair or such, and i'll try to correct it.

I did my best for a valid and useful contribution to the jazz tone on fractal topic, where of course the best solution is to model a jazz-focused amp, that's why the topic is also in the 'wish list', let me know if I did something wrong here.

peace
fabio
 
I am familiar those tones. You do realize that Joe Pass used to plug directly into a PA system don't you? Not always, he changed it up. That's partly why I commented you may be able to forgo an amp block altogether...especially if using certain guitars.

"Jazz" incorporates a very vast range of tones, so yes those other amps are viable options for some players.

BTW--better not tell Larry Coryell that no one EVER uses the JC-120 for REAL jazz! :p :tearsofjoy: :p :tearsofjoy: :p
is Larry Coryell a classic tone jazz player? For what I know, he used to play distorted since '60s, with a very hybrid phrasing (jazzy-rocky-bluesy).
Joe Pass on tour played basically everything he was connected to for lack of options, that's true 👍 Still, his trademark sound, the one you hear in his best recordings, is the combination of Gibson 175 and a Polytone... So guess what amp I suggested is missing atm in our favorite modeler? :)
 
I did my best for a valid and useful contribution to the jazz tone on fractal topic, where of course the best solution is to model a jazz-focused amp, that's why the topic is also in the 'wish list', let me know if I did something wrong here.
I completely respect your wish for an amp that fills your needs, and this is definitely the right place for it.

Your affirmation of Purplestrats post got under my skin. In my experience, that's not how this forum operates.
 
is Larry Coryell a classic tone jazz player? For what I know, he used to play distorted since '60s, with a very hybrid phrasing (jazzy-rocky-bluesy).
Joe Pass on tour played basically everything he was connected to for lack of options, that's true 👍 Still, his trademark sound, the one you hear in his best recordings, is the combination of Gibson 175 and a Polytone... So guess what amp I suggested is missing atm in our favorite modeler? :)
True, Larry is what you may call a hybrid player, but he's still pretty awesome. And yes again, Pass was probably limited at times, but do you think it mattered much? I doubt it.

At any rate, don't interpret my comments as dissing your wish. It's a wish list for a reason. I just want to encourage you that I do believe the unit is already capable of what you are seeking. Don't overlook Compression, EQ, Cab, and of course the IR.

Again, good luck.
 
This is 100% correct.… Without those work/resources it cannot happen.

If you want to see these amplifiers modeled, then you need to send Cliff a real amplifier example to model/measure and the factory schematics.

There's already a request fro Polytone with complete circuits map and all, i cannot find it now on search, but I'm sure Admin can find it easily.
Other wish/requests for jazz oriented amps are in this forums, I just link couple of them:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/polytone.149010/
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/ss-amp-or-preamp.182361/


If you cannot find, for any reason, that detailed post, I can look on the web for Polytone circuitry and post it asap.

thank you!
fabio
 
True, Larry is what you may call a hybrid player, but he's still pretty awesome. And yes again, Pass was probably limited at times, but do you think it mattered much? I doubt it.

At any rate, don't interpret my comments as dissing your wish. It's a wish list for a reason. I just want to encourage you that I do believe the unit is already capable of what you are seeking. Don't overlook Compression, EQ, Cab, and of course the IR.

Again, good luck.
thank you! Never thought you were dissing! Despite some 'harshness' here and there (I guess being not native english counts here), That's exactly my spirit also: positive and collaborative :)

btw if you have any specific tip for the use of those blocks to get where I wish, feel definitively free to share :)
best
fabio
 
Guys thank you so much for your answer.
Unfortunately, they dont solve the issue.

1. jazz guitar is not uncolored sound, that's acoustic or Hi-Fi or FRFR; I understand that if you are not into jazz, you barely listened Joe Pass, Grant Green, Jim Hall, etc and maybe with no special attention to the sound, but the tone IS colored, I did my best with a long description above, without results, if the unswer is 'you just need uncolored': 'clean' guitar sound is not 'uncolored'! Color is an Eq/dynamics stuff, it's not a synonimous of 'not distorted'!!
2. Average jazz guitarists use amps in real life, I guess that's the whole point of a modeler: substitute the amp! But people here tell me only 2 things: adapt/tweak/modify an amp meant for another use (funny, I never heard such an answer if the quest is for a rock amp) or to skip the amp altogehter, that vanishes the point of buying a modeler, especially an expensive one like FM3
3. biggest frustration is with the usual answers: Roland Jazz Chorus and Fender, that are the answers form who doesnt have an answer: Roland is NEVER consider an opition for jazz in real life, the most jazz thing about it is the name! I guess that's what confuse who doesnt know jazz music. Fender are completely set for another type of sound: the hole in the mids and the excess of high and low end make them unsuitable for jazz, unless you heavly tweak, and the valve break up in the attack of note makes it unsuitable for complex 'swinging' lines and chords, that get confused and sound funky more than jazz. Sure, it can be the nowadays choice for some rock-ish jazz players, but the ones played by artists in the '50's-'60's where totally other beasts, still they were substitued quickly from SS amps as soon as they came out, because they were loud, warm, dark, yet intellegible and without any distortion on the attack on note.


I'm sad to say that from the answers i get It's honestly becoming a bit frustrating: I supposed that in a musican's forum, you dont have to explain from start every time you talk what a jazz guitar tone is, I supposed, but I was wrong my fault, that everybody had an idea if you say 'classical piano sound' or 'jazz sax sound' or such.
I also supposed that in a modeler forum, people wouldnt answer 'skip amp, find a turnaround that sounds somewhere around what you're looking for and be happy...
I was wrong in both cases.

So I ask the question again making it simpler:
As I'm not the first one to ask for it (there's a thread in this forum that includes schematics too), is it possible to add two simple amps for people playing jazz?

-Polytone Minibrute IV
-Henriksen 112 er

Those are primary choice of any jazz guitarists, so why to keep an entire musical genre out of this device? Adpating an ampli thought for rock is not an option, and if the only option is to skip the amp...well, I dont need Fractal for that!
I've read through the different threads and I'm going to presume that a lot of 'frustration' is due to a language barrier and intent that is lost in translation.

One thing that has been suggested a few times and would help a lot is if you would provide videos or clips of the real jazz tone you're looking to create. People have posted some examples in an attempt to define the tone but you have dismissed them as not being a real jazz tone. There are a lot of users here that can work magic with FAS gear and would likely be able to create a tone that you would find more than acceptable.

The FM3 has a lot of options that aren't available with real amps so it is not an exaggeration to say that the tone you want is definitely possible, without any compromise, with the current amp selection but only if you're willing to use the tools currently available. The first option that comes to mind is changing the tone stack of the amp model. Using the Tube Pre, any of the Double Verb, Concert or Super Verb models and experimenting with different tone stacks could provide very satisfying results.

There have been attempts to offer solutions with the amp models the FM3 currently has. It seems that if a preset doesn't have either of the wished for amps, you won't even give it a try and automatically assume that it's not going to sound like a real jazz tone. Since there is no guarantee that either of the amps will be added, why not try some of the suggestions and see if any will get you the tone you want?
 
thank you! Never thought you were dissing! Despite some 'harshness' here and there (I guess being not native english counts here), That's exactly my spirit also: positive and collaborative :)

btw if you have any specific tip for the use of those blocks to get where I wish, feel definitively free to share :)
best
fabio
I don't think you would appreciate my tips my cork sniffer friend ;) (that is in jest BTW). Here is a great example of the type of jazz tone I like:

 
I've read through the different threads and I'm going to presume that a lot of 'frustration' is due to a language barrier and intent that is lost in translation.

One thing that has been suggested a few times and would help a lot is if you would provide videos or clips of the real jazz tone you're looking to create. People have posted some examples in an attempt to define the tone but you have dismissed them as not being a real jazz tone. There are a lot of users here that can work magic with FAS gear and would likely be able to create a tone that you would find more than acceptable.

The FM3 has a lot of options that aren't available with real amps so it is not an exaggeration to say that the tone you want is definitely possible, without any compromise, with the current amp selection but only if you're willing to use the tools currently available. The first option that comes to mind is changing the tone stack of the amp model. Using the Tube Pre, any of the Double Verb, Concert or Super Verb models and experimenting with different tone stacks could provide very satisfying results.

There have been attempts to offer solutions with the amp models the FM3 currently has. It seems that if a preset doesn't have either of the wished for amps, you won't even give it a try and automatically assume that it's not going to sound like a real jazz tone. Since there is no guarantee that either of the amps will be added, why not try some of the suggestions and see if any will get you the tone you want?

You are totally right, just I was 'new member' and couldnt post links, so the discussion could be a bit 'abstract' until now

Now I can :)

here is a first, fast go about 'default' jazz tones, both clean but not uncolored: warmth, dynamics, fast, headroom, 'linear' clean but 'beef' attack, no valve breakup or sag, still amp sound is there (you dont get this sound if just plug into an acoustic/clinical amp/preamp, even less if you go direct into the board or mixer...)

polytone

henriksen




As you said, I know you can tweak deeply on Fractal; I'm not into electronic engineering so it's beyond my possibilities to figure out how to electrically tweak an existant amp to go there, but I'm confident that I can collect tips from experts people here to get this sounds out of my FM3 :)

Thank you so much
 
You are totally right, just I was 'new member' and couldnt post links, so the discussion could be a bit 'abstract' until now

Now I can :)

here is a first, fast go about 'default' jazz tones, both clean but not uncolored: warmth, dynamics, fast, headroom, 'linear' clean but 'beef' attack, no valve breakup or sag, still amp sound is there (you dont get this sound if just plug into an acoustic/clinical amp/preamp, even less if you go direct into the board or mixer...)

polytone

henriksen




As you said, I know you can tweak deeply on Fractal; I'm not into electronic engineering so it's beyond my possibilities to figure out how to electrically tweak an existant amp to go there, but I'm confident that I can collect tips from experts people here to get this sounds out of my FM3 :)

Thank you so much



sorry, wrong copy and paste, this is the Henriksen example




I preferred these examples instead of great jazz artists because the guitar sound is more upfront and understandable (i hope)
 
I don't think you would appreciate my tips my cork sniffer friend ;) (that is in jest BTW). Here is a great example of the type of jazz tone I like:



thanks for this contribution, it's actually important: to my ears, that's a beautiful clean guitar, not a jazz sound :)
differences: mids are too 'behind', excess of bass and high, but it's the tonal equilibrum in general that is different.
more: can you hear the 'breakingup' attack of the notes? they're around 'crunchy' territory, it shouldnt be there to play jazz.
Infact, she plays beautifully and I love the composition, but it's not jazz, from a sound perspective but also from a musical perspective (harmony, phasing, lack of 'swing', etc).
I really thank you for this, because it's a great example of a great clean sound and music, which likely most of non specific jazz musicians refers to when answering in this thread, but actually it's not what a 'default' jazz guitar player is looking for.
 
Hi abend. Welcome to the forum. While I am not a jazz player, I have enjoyed watching this thread and learning a new perspective from it.

Based on the clips you have provided, through my setup and my ears, the sound you are looking for is clean, rich, and allows the guitar to be heard without too much shaping. I will suggest a starting point, from which you can try out and build from there. Only you can achieve the tone you want, but this is a fantastic environment to get help with that journey.

My suggestion is, to not use an Amp block, and instead, just use a Cab block, for now. Try out Factory 2 903 "4X12 Rumble-12L A"
Go to the Preamp page of the Cab block and bring the High Cut to around 5500 with a 12dB/Oct slope. Leave the Low Cut default for now. The rest of this page will act as a kind of amp. Let's bring the Preamp type to FET I and the Preamp Mode to Economy. Bring the Drive control up for just a tiny bit of compression. Note, it will NOT distort at minimal levels. Now, go to the Tone part of that same page, and adjust the EQ to your liking. I think these controls are very powerful while still being able to retain your core guitar's tone. If you wish to add an Amp block from there, you can without having to rely on it as your primary source of EQ.

In summary, the idea is to capture the sound and feel of your guitar first using only the Cab block. Then use EQ, an Amp block, etc, to shape that tone to what you are looking for; instead of going the other way around and trying to recapture the tone of your guitar that would have been altered too much by the amp.

Anyhow, I hope this helps in some way. It is merely a suggestion. Good luck on your tonal journey, I know within your FM3 is the destination.
 
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Hi abend. Welcome to the forum. While I am not a jazz player, I have enjoyed watching this thread and learning a new perspective from it.

Based on the clips you have provided, through my setup and my ears, the sound you are looking for is clean, rich, and allows the guitar to be heard without too much shaping. I will suggest a starting point, from which you can try out and build from there. Only you can achieve the tone you want, but this is a fantastic environment to get help with that journey.

My suggestion is, to not use an Amp block, and instead, just use a Cab block, for now. Try out Factory 2 903 "4X12 Rumble-12L A"
Go to the Preamp page of the Cab block and bring the High Cut to around 5500 with a 12dB/Oct slope. Leave the Low Cut default for now. The rest of this page will act as a kind of amp. Let's bring the Preamp type to FET I and the Preamp Mode to Economy. Bring the Drive control up for just a tiny bit of compression. Note, it will NOT distort at minimal levels. Now, go to the Tone part of that same page, and adjust the EQ to your liking. I think these controls are very powerful while still being able to retain your core guitar's tone. If you wish to add an Amp block from there, you can without having to rely on it as your primary source of EQ.

In summary, the idea is to capture the sound and feel of your guitar first using only the Cab block. Then use EQ, an Amp block, etc, to shape that tone to what you are looking for; instead of going the other way around and trying to recapture the tone of your guitar that would have been altered too much by the amp.

Anyhow, I hope this helps in some way. It is merely a suggestion. Good luck on your tonal journey, I know within your FM3 is the destination.

Andrew, that's a GREAT contribution from you. Thank you so much!
I'm out of town for the weekend, but I guess I'll be back home as soon as possible and close inside to try your hints! ahah your fault!
thank you so much, I'll give a feedback soon 👍
 
not a jazz sound
but it's not jazz, from a sound perspective but also from a musical perspective (harmony, phasing, lack of 'swing', etc).

It's jazz if the person playing it says it's jazz. And if they say they are playing jazz, it's a jazz tone they're using to play it. Reducto ad absurdbum and all that.

Rather than tell people what's not jazz, stick to posting sound clips you find inspiring and ask for help obtaining those tones. As soon as you start telling people things like "that's not jazz" you've ended any hope of a collaboration. Both because you're wrong and you're being a dick.

There's my $0.02 on how to have productive interactions on this forum.
 
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