Is there still no sensible way to use a bunch of controller knobs?

[laxu]

I'd love to control my Axe-Fx Standard with some physical knobs instead of that damned single datawheel or Axe-Edit. Just for those quick adjustments. It would be enough to be able to control the amp block like this. Is this still not possible or has someone figured out a way to use something like the Behringer BCR2000 for this?

 

[miketheman]

No commercial products AFAIK. However if you aren´t to scared to do some work yourself, this may be your ticket: MemeCode - MIDI Controller
"Fret" is on this forum as well, so any questions can be asked directly to him (see thread, 3rd post down: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/other-midi-controllers/38766-18-button-controller-custom-build.html ). He made his own footcontroller/tweakbox as you can see in his blog.

It shouldn´t be to hard to put his board into an empty rackbox, drill some holes for the pots. The hardest thing IMHO would be to cut out a hole for the display, but on the other hand you wouldn´t need it since you probably putting it near your Axe STD anyway...

 

[shasha]

I've got a BCF2000 that I started delving into in order to control everything for my Ultra a while back. I figured out how to program the sysex stuff to make it work, but the thing is that there are SO many damn parameters that you run out of knobs really quick and have to start getting into banks. Once you start changing banks you start losing track of what controls what. And the other issue is that there is no way to get the BCF stuff to recognize the status of the parameter (even by sending a status request because it doesn't understand it when the AxeFX spits it out)....so basically as soon as you touch a control it resets it to the initial value which is usually zero. I did program mine for noon but even then if you need to just touch a setting a tiny bit it resets it to midway.

Now I spent a LOT of time messing with this and in the end it was just faster to use the front panel or AxeEdit. Seriously. It becomes so hard to try to come up with a usable convention and then you end up spending more time trying to remember what bank you need to be in and then which knob adjusts which parameter that it becomes infuriating.

 

[jimfist]

check this thread

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/lounge/44860-lemur-now-one-best-reasons-own-ipad.html

if you are interested in going the iPad route, it looks like there will be more and more of this to come, with users developing and sharing their own custom templates.

 

[laxu]

Thanks for the replies. Using an iPad would be pretty much the same as just using Axe-Edit and don't have the time or will for a DIY board. I guess I'll have to wait for an Axe-Fx 3 and see if it'll have a more sensible user interface.

 

[jimfist]

Yeah, if you're looking for hardware knobs and switches etc., then it still may be some time before a good solution is available. I agree with the sentiment of your OP. Quite a while ago this same general topic came up, and I voiced that I'd love to see a dedicated hardware interface controller for the AxeFx, similar to the Lexicon MRC MIDI controller that was used with the old Lexicon LXP1/LXP5 way back when in the mid 1980s. I'd pay a fair amount of $$ for this type of real-time controller/editor.

Things aren't trending that way, though. The AxeFx is continually evolving, with firmware updates adding new parameters and features all the time. Again, just wishin' and hopin', but I'd love to see this type of dedicated hardware controller offered by FAS as an option to footboards and software editors.

Until then, there are a ton of controllers out there, but programming them to work properly with the AxeFx is a more lofty task than I have the time for, unfortunately. But if I did have the time....

 

[MikeyB59]

A couple of things. The 4 knobs (plus large knob) give you something like that on the Axe II. Push the x button in Recall mode and up pops amp 1, ready to be tweaked. It's one page button either way to get between the 2 pages I care about in a hurry. I'll now do this kind of tweaking on stage occasionally. It's way easier than on standard/ultra.

Using a Behringer box like above, you can assign 12 modifiers to many things including the drive structure of an amp (but not the tone controls). I did that for a while with an Ultra, but with the II's knobs and an MFC it's not really needed.

The biggest problem as noted is getting controllers to recognize what the Axe sends out. I have to think that this is a result of the Axe not having been designed for this kind of thing from the start. There are so many other instruments that update bidirectionally. Software instruments are one huge category where loading a new preset will reset all the controller values. It's been this way for a long time. I have complained about this aspect of the Axe now and again for ages, but I don't think it's a big deal for FA and/or the magnitude of the fix might be too large to be worth it.

I do think templates people come up with for Lemur could go a long way towards giving people a lot of what I'd like from a controller. We'll see.

You could always use a controller hooked up and then have an Ipad control Axe Edit, but for live use, you'd still get out of sync with an MFC or whatever controller you're using.

 

[fret]

"Fret" is on this forum as well, so any questions can be asked directly to him (see thread, 3rd post down: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/other-midi-controllers/38766-18-button-controller-custom-build.html ). He made his own footcontroller/tweakbox as you can see in his blog.

Yup still here. I'm slowly working on some new stuff. Like more functionality for switches and making the knobs into rotary encoders with LED position markers. Also up to rev3 on the MC1 firmware. I've also ordered an SD card adapter and a higher end microprocessor stamp with a view towards better kits/controllers down the track.

The rotary encoder / LED ring thing will allow me to "set" the position of the knob when you change preset. So that it doesn't "jump" to the current position as soon as you touch it. Might take me 6 months to implement though, as I have to multiplex them into a small number of IO pins on the micro.

 

[LAYGO]

Yup still here. I'm slowly working on some new stuff. Like more functionality for switches and making the knobs into rotary encoders with LED position markers. Also up to rev3 on the MC1 firmware. I've also ordered an SD card adapter and a higher end microprocessor stamp with a view towards better kits/controllers down the track.

The rotary encoder / LED ring thing will allow me to "set" the position of the knob when you change preset. So that it doesn't "jump" to the current position as soon as you touch it. Might take me 6 months to implement though, as I have to multiplex them into a small number of IO pins on the micro.

Aww man, I had almost given up on you. I'm still very interested in something like this. I'd be willing to front some money for development costs for parts, etc.

I can better understand some of the complexity of the two communication now though from the posts here.

Ultimately I want a 1U thing of knobs. It might be neat if a group knobs had an LED screen to indicate what function they're currently assigned to (see LF 12+).

 

[SimonDreyer]

Using an iPad would be pretty much the same as just using Axe-Edit

iPad is nothing like using Axe-Edit for the following reasons:-
1) To change a value with Axe-Edit you have to put your hand on the mouse, move the cursor to the required value, highlight the value, type in a new value with the keyboard and hit enter or try to manipulate the control by moving the mouse with the left button held down (useless for fine adjustments). The iPad on the other hand, you just reach over and touch the slider and move it, fine control is easy by just rolling your finger on the slider. With Midi Touch or similar programs you can make the controls as big as you like and group them however you like.
2) With a laptop you need a flat surface to put the mouse, you have to put your pick down to drive it. With windows there is all the hassle with waiting for it to start-up, opening Axe-Edit, connecting to the Axe. iPad is instant, push one button, tap the screen and you are there, 2 seconds max.

Cheers S ( 0 )===:::

 

[laxu]

iPad is nothing like using Axe-Edit for the following reasons:-
1) To change a value with Axe-Edit you have to put your hand on the mouse, move the cursor to the required value, highlight the value, type in a new value with the keyboard and hit enter or try to manipulate the control by moving the mouse with the left button held down (useless for fine adjustments). The iPad on the other hand, you just reach over and touch the slider and move it, fine control is easy by just rolling your finger on the slider. With Midi Touch or similar programs you can make the controls as big as you like and group them however you like.
2) With a laptop you need a flat surface to put the mouse, you have to put your pick down to drive it. With windows there is all the hassle with waiting for it to start-up, opening Axe-Edit, connecting to the Axe. iPad is instant, push one button, tap the screen and you are there, 2 seconds max.

It is still not much of an improvement because of its lack of tactile feel. Plus there are several other reasons why I won't buy an iPad. Likewise the Axe-Fx 2 isn't for me because I don't really need the other stuff and I feel that the four knobs + datawheel is just poorly implemented in the way it doesn't match the layout on the screen (this could've been easily avoided by just putting the controls closer to the display in a row) and changes based on selection.

LAYGO: that's pretty much what I'd like to see as well.

 

[MikeDV]

Wondering the same thing, changing little stuff on the fly is a hassle with the Ultra. I'm looking at my Rocktron Pirhana - in it's manual, they show where you can use the knobs on the front to send MIDI cc changes, similar to what y'all are talking about. They give the cc#'s they're assigned to, so I'm guessing that on the right channel, and matched up with the correct cc# on the Axe - #87 for drive for example - I should be able to lean over an tweak that by turning a knob. There's also something called a Phat Boy controller that look like it does the same thing. Anyone try any of this? I discovered this looking for a MIDI rotary controller unit, one rack space - does not exist. Closest big unit is the Behringer BCR200 - big as a f'in house!

 

[larry12]

No real commercial products to actually pull this one off for you.

Though that is actually something you can work for by yourself. I am not too sure with the guide posted but if people are jumping on it and quite successful with it, then you at least have to try.

The only problem I can see here is damaging your hardware, for real.

 

[SimonDreyer]

Just a quick update guys, there is no hardware or software to do this at the moment. The problems are as follows:-
1) Most of the parameters we want to change have to be done with SysEx messages and the AxeII is different from the old ones in that it has a check-sum that has to be calculated for every string that you send out to set a value in the Axe.
2) To update the values on a display, like an iPad etc., firstly we have to send a request to read the values (which we can't do) then we need to parse the string that is returned and get the bit of data we want from it.

These functions are not really hard to do in most software but unfortunately all the current batch of programs can't do it. It would seem that everyone is obsessed with stupid f***n bouncing balls to make even more bland and banal electronic noise.

I am a VB programmer and don't know enough about C programming to be able to write one myself but the moment someone brings out a Visual Basic style programming language for the iPad I will do it in a flash.

Waiting and hoping
Cheers S

 

[PALYGAP]

Just a quick update guys, there is no hardware or software to do this at the moment. The problems are as follows:-
1) Most of the parameters we want to change have to be done with SysEx messages and the AxeII is different from the old ones in that it has a check-sum that has to be calculated for every string that you send out to set a value in the Axe.

Do you know how this check-sum number is calculated? Is this documented?

BCR2000 is attractive since it provided quite a few encoder with led displays for a very reasonable price.

Some guys are mentioning using the BCR2000 to send SysEx message to the Axe-Fx. Looking at the manual of the BCR2000 I can't figure out how to do that. Could someone help on this?

Cheers

 

[shasha]

Do you know how this check-sum number is calculated? Is this documented?

BCR2000 is attractive since it provided quite a few encoder with led displays for a very reasonable price.

Some guys are mentioning using the BCR2000 to send SysEx message to the Axe-Fx. Looking at the manual of the BCR2000 I can't figure out how to do that. Could someone help on this?

Cheers

You'll need a good editor and I suggest this one: Mountain Utilities BCF2000/BCR2000 It's exceptional. There is a document floating around called "SecretBC.pdf" that is great. I've got a copy of it if you can't track it down. Just shoot me a PM with your email address and I'll send it to you if you want it.

 

[CyberFerret]

Do you know how this check-sum number is calculated? Is this documented?

From my research during AxePad development:

You will need to look at all the BYTE values from the start of the SYSEX message (including the F0 leader byte) up until the last byte (excluding the F7 termination septet).

You then need to XOR the bytes with each other, starting at the first one and working through to the end of the string (remembering to EXCLUDE the F7 termination byte).

On the final result byte, you need to drop the highest bit, so you need to AND the result with 0x7F.

You then need to add this final checksum calculation to the end of the SYSEX string, just before the F7 termination septet.

Hope this helps...

 

[PALYGAP]

Thanks shasha for the tip.

Thanks CyberFerret for the clear explanation. Does the AxePad work with the AXE-FX 2 ?

Just to make sure XOR of byte works like that :
argument 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0
argument 2 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1
result 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1

I have actually been able to control my AXE-FX ULTRA using the BOME' MIDI TRANSLATOR PRO on my MAC. It is fairly easy to map the CC coming out of the BCR2OOO to Sysex messages using the transformation rules of a mapping. I also edited the BCR2000 preset for the knob sending AMP1_TYPE so that it only sends allowed values, 0 to 70 for the ULTRA.

As Shasha mentioned in an earlier post, that does not make for a perfect way to control the parameters of a preset but it allows for a better interface (at least for me) to tune the tone. The most annoying thing is the sound pops caused by the changed of the parameter value (especially in the AMP block). This apparently has been a problem even with Axe-Edit. I wonder if anybody has found a way to get round that problem?

One thing that would be nice to do with the BCR2000 should be to change the parameter controlled by the 32 knobs in the main area depending on the on/off state of the 16 switches that are above. That way the main parameters of up to 16 blocks could be accessed easily with this set of 32 control knobs. Right now I haven't found the way to do that with BOME' MIDI TRANSLATOR PRO.

 

[Scrutinizer]

Great info, thanks!

I bought a BCR2000 recently and have not had time to start using it. My plan is to use the MIDI merger/router box (click link in sig) to enable parameter tweaking on the fly from the BCR2000. The BCR would plug into the merger/router USB host post, which would also provide power to the BCR. The hardware is ready, I just have to write some code. Lots of code.

 

[PALYGAP]

That looks good. How are you planning to use it with the axe-fx? BCR2000 ---USB---> MIDI merger/router box ---MIDI OUT---> AXE-FX (MIDI IN) ?