Is there a plan which amps get modelled or not modelled?

Liquid22

Inspired
Hi erveryone

More or less by accident I stumbled today over this and it brings up two questions about which amps get modelled:

It started with the FW 5 beta Thread and a post “What is a cathode follower”. Chris brought a link up where the cathode follower is kind of explained on a Hughes & Kettner TubeMeister. https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/axe-fx-iii-firmware-version-5-00-beta.148607/page-2

There you can read the TubeMeister “There’s something special going on inside these housings, and you can hear it as soon as you power up, plug in, and wail away. […] The zesty flavor of tone the cathode follower delivers results in an amp that’s a pretty awesome combination of old and new – a time-tested guitar amplifier circuit, the cathode follower, paired with a tube-driven power amp […]


That sounded (commercial like) BUT interesting and I searched for sound samples: i.e.

For a Marshall-Guy like me, I was kind of surprised about that Amp-Sound and to be honest I really liked it. And instantly I wanted to try a H&K Amp on the Axe (hoping also for a miracle that a TubeMeister is already in there).

So I went through all the Axe III Amp Models and was surprise that I didn’t find one single Hughes & Kettner Amp.

Then I saw a Forum Thread -- Wish List: New Amps. https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/wish-list-new-amps.137944/ Only one wish for a Hughes & Kettner Amp was there and all over the place many wishes for Amps of Brands we already have.

To the point now:

First:
I thought Hughes & Kettner is a well-known and huge brand and there for some users already requested those amps for years. Can anyone explain, why those Amps are so rarely wanted here in the Forum / by users? Is there maybe another kind of amp that already sounds kind of similar (like the Friedmans and Plexis) or something like that? Is it just because Cliff doesn’t own one he could model? Or....

Second:
I mean I’m more that happy about the huge amount of all the great Marshall amps on the Axe, so there’s nothing more I could wish for. But still, in general: Does Cliff ever mentioned why the focus on the modelled amps lies on a “smaller” group of brands and not on the goal to first modelling a wider range of amp-brands and then later go into specific models of a brand? Or did it just come like it is today without any strict plan?

Cheers
Liquid
 
The biggest thing is there has to be a schematic easily a available
I am sure there are exceptions to that rule but thats a biggie

Second it has to offer a different flavor than one of the amps in there with slight tweaks

Third is demand if 2 people ask for it
In a year its unlikely it will show up

Thats my observation from watching wish list
 
It’s not only about the costs, but I think of you have most people the pick of a Friedman, a Carol Ann, a Trainwreck, a vintage Marshall et al., or a H&K few would go for the H&K. Not bad amps for the money, but kind of like Peavey, Bugera, and such, probably not anything too many people are excited about.

There is the affordable stuff in the Musicians Friend catalog, and then there is the stuff people usually dream about, though that is priced out of reach, aka Friedman’s, Trainwrecks etc.
 
Also, my understanding is that modeling an amplifier is nontrivial; at least one man-month.

As mentioned: desire, a physical reference amp and accurate schematics (which can be difficult to obtain due to copyrights)

Hope that helps.
 
I think a while ago when I was looking through the forums for information on the H&K Triamp, one of the points made was that amp's appeal was more flexibility over uniqueness, it's channels broadly sounding similar to a fender, a marshall and a rectifier, or what have you. Kinda like the Randall MTS stuff where it seems like a proto-Axe Fx in terms of tone variety for the touring musician and doesn't seem overly venerated in and of itself. I remember when the Tubemeisters came out there was a lot of YouTube videos including H&K inviting guests over to demo them which struck me as a marketing gimmick, again, as opposed to a supreme vouch of quality. That's not to say there's nothing of value from their amps but I think coupled with the difficulty in replicating amps it's likely they'd be lower down the pecking order in terms of desirability. Diezel amps seems similar in nature but have a bigger track record of being used by known artists as well as having a unique character which is why'd I'd assume they're modelled, be unique and/or be popular. I dig the look though.
 
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I....H&K Triamp, one of the points made was that amp's appeal was more flexibility over uniqueness, it's channels broadly sounding similar to a fender, a marshall and a rectifier, or what have you. ....

This.

I had the Triamp for years. Great amp that was maybe ahead of it's time back then. But I found nothing really unique about it that made it stand out in a crowd (outside of just how pretty it looked up there on stage.)

FAS has commented that many of the amps requested are derivatives of existing amps with different voicing. They can be fairly easily reproduced if you do the research on what that particular amp was based on, and what 'changes' they made to make it their version.
 
It’s not only about the costs, but I think of you have most people the pick of a Friedman, a Carol Ann, a Trainwreck, a vintage Marshall et al., or a H&K few would go for the H&K. Not bad amps for the money, but kind of like Peavey, Bugera, and such, probably not anything too many people are excited about.

There is the affordable stuff in the Musicians Friend catalog, and then there is the stuff people usually dream about, though that is priced out of reach, aka Friedman’s, Trainwrecks etc.
Same could be said about the Blues Jr., Carvin Legacy, Tiny Terror, AC15 to name a few and yet they are part of the Fractal lineup.
 
only one in that list that I don't understand is the tiny terror. Blues Jr's and AC15's aren't expensive, but they are pretty unique and desirable. I can see how the legacy got added to satisfy certain artists, but the tiny terror... More is usually better than less I guess, lol, can't complain
 
H&K’s are cool amps. I have several friends that have them. I would love to have a Fractal version of it or info on how to dial one in.
 
Pretty sure I remember the H&K topic coming up awhile back & the response was that it is nothing more than another Marshall based amp and nothing special at that. Seeing how just about every real Marshall and renowned Marshall type boutique amp is already modeled, there would be no point in modeling the H&K.
 
Does Cliff ever mentioned why the focus on the modelled amps lies on a “smaller” group of brands and not on the goal to first modelling a wider range of amp-brands and then later go into specific models of a brand?
I don't think Fractal is particularly concerned about making sure all brands are covered. They're focused on delivering a wide range of amp sounds, not amp brands.

We have such a wide range of different amps now. I wouldn't care to see an amp model added just because of its brand.
 
I don't think Fractal is particularly concerned about making sure all brands are covered. They're focused on delivering a wide range of amp sounds, not amp brands.

We have such a wide range of different amps now. I wouldn't care to see an amp model added just because of its brand.
And sometimes even unique models that are suitable for different genres of music with multiple repeated requests over time don’t make it in. It seems to me the focus now is on improving tone quality rather than broadening the library.
 
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That sounded (commercial like) BUT interesting and I searched for sound samples: i.e.

For a Marshall-Guy like me, I was kind of surprised about that Amp-Sound and to be honest I really liked it. And instantly I wanted to try a H&K Amp on the Axe (hoping also for a miracle that a TubeMeister is already in there).

So I went through all the Axe III Amp Models and was surprise that I didn’t find one single Hughes & Kettner Amp.


Plug Rabea Massaad into some of the existing amps at our box, and the tone will be as great and catching as at that demo.
 
I really would dig a crappy fender frontman 15 solid state practice amp, some of the coolest tones can come from crap gear. The distortion out of that thing was atrocious :D, I'd play along to Hybrid Theory for hours playing one finger bar chords in drop D on the squier strat that came in the same package
Cliff could model the Marshall VS30R. What a piece of crap that amp was. Or possibly one of the Gorilla amps.
 
I think this is a nuanced question, especially given the current amp landscape (which is far more diverse and overall tonally awesome than we could say back in the 90s and 2000s). I would argue that even though some of the current boutique makers' efforts to make an ideal Plexi style amp are derivative, nevertheless, they are doing something with that platform that nobody else is doing (and given just how all over the place old Marshalls were, component-wise, there is no single Plexi "tone" but rather a family of flavors).

I personally would rather have something like a Bogner Helios or Metro Metroplex because I know those builders have taken the basic Plexi design and weeded out all of the design flaws that take away from tone. They aren't built around a basic "I need to make this as cheaply as possible" mantra like the original Marshalls were. I also like the idea of an "ideal" Plexi rather than a period-accurate one since, for me, that ideal Plexi is probably going to sound better and be more versatile. Owning a Bogner Goldfinger SL, which is very much in the Plexi camp (ableit with a 6V6 power section), I would much rather rock that amp than an original Plexi since I trust Reinhold's ears more than I trust Marshall's engineers in the 60's and 70's to have been consistent. And, of course, the original JTM designs we know were an attempt to make higher powered Fenders and were based on Fender's designs, so they themselves are derivative.

My guess is the current amp modeling dependencies would be what people have already said: having a physical amp and a schematic, especially for a complicated amp like the Mesa Mark IVs and Rectos. It's a lot easier to trace a circuit in a Fender Champ than it is a Bogner Ecstacy, and that's where a schematic is key. And then having that amp have something tonally special about it (which I think could be argued for the Helios and Metroplex called out above).

I almost bought an H&K Grandmeister Deluxe as a portable "do it all" amp, but when I hear the tones nothing stands out as special or compelling for the price compared to something like a Friedman Runt or the new Marshall Studio series, or even the Mark V 25 for a little more $$. Sure, it has a lot of good built in effects and switching options, but who cares if the base tone is "meh"?

Very curious to hear from Cliff if anything new, amp-wise, is in the works. In addition to some of the ideal, boutique Plexi style amps I called out above, I'd love to see more FAS amps like the Skull Crusher (which is excellent). It would be awesome to hear Cliff's take on the "perfect clean amp," for example.
 
Same could be said about the Blues Jr., Carvin Legacy, Tiny Terror, AC15 to name a few and yet they are part of the Fractal lineup.

Some amps aren’t pricey but are iconic, like a Blues Jr, they’ve probably sold millions of those things and you still seem them a lots of stages.

Some amps you pick becasue it’s what you want, it’s not about price. Others I think people mainly buy because of the price point.

You spend a lot of money for a little handwired Champ, but you don’t spend a lot of money for a Gorilla 8” speaker amp.

It’s just like pedals, there is the original pedal, the popular clone, and then a dozen Chinese clones of the clone.

You could model a Blues breaker, or a pedal it’s based off like a King of Tone, but does anyone also want a Joyo or Mooer et al., copy of a copy ? Probably not
 
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