Is it me or the sound guy?

[pauly]

I knew it was my mum’s fault! A nice change from when everything was my fault!
Oh - and to the op - be sure you’re right (like don’t take your advice from fans) - and then change or readjust the sound guy. You may get control by turning down etc etc, but the truth of the matter is you could fuck up the music. You need to trust the sound guy - it’s his job to make you sound good.

Thanks
Pauly

All good points. At almost every gig, the singers girlfriend comes up at some point and says that the singer isn't loud enough. All channels are 'trimmed' to the same input levels. the singer's channel fader is a good 10+ dB above everything else. I see videos of shows all of the time, and he is plenty loud enough.

My mom usually says that I am not loud enough (go figure). I see videos of shows all of the time, and the guitar plenty loud enough.


To the O.P....

Try to listen to as many videos of your shows, different venues, different spots in the room, different recorders, etc... to get a good idea of what is going on with your mix, and how your presets work within it.

Your presets could be the culprit too? You likely have your monitor level on stage relatively louder than the FOH mix will have you. So you won't notice it as much? More 'mids'?

 

[brianv4]

No amps at all, completely silent stage. Every thing was direct, even the electronic drums.

Me and the bass player are using Fractal, keys are direct. I wish I could get my drummer to go that way!

 

[vika12]

I know this is meant to be a joke but there is a lot of truth here. If you take the time to meet and talk with the sound guy, develop a good rapport with them, things will usually go smoothly. Conversely, if you're demeaning and demanding, things can go south quickly.

You may know more than them when it comes to mixing but you're not going to get anywhere by coming off as a know it all. Even if they're 'just' the venue sound guy, showing them you appreciate them being there, what they do and what your needs are before the show can result in better than decent sounding mixes.

If you're lucky enough and they're a legitimate audio engineer, still go out of your way to see if there's anything they need and ask them for a moment to run through your setup and what you typically expect in the mix. Having one person as a liaison with the FOH can also make things go smoothly rather than 5 guys telling them what they want.

Bottom line, just take a moment and be nice. Not getting what you need is going to affect you, and the performance, more than the sound guy so it's in your best interest.

I'm always nice

 

[badmagick]

Honest question on the “leave yourself headroom” thought…
How much do you guys feel you can get? I always figured when you did line levels the sound guy was adjusting input signal pretty close to the red. No concerns of clipping on the input?

 

[Moke]

Honest question on the “leave yourself headroom” thought…
How much do you guys feel you can get? I always figured when you did line levels the sound guy was adjusting input signal pretty close to the red. No concerns of clipping on the input?

They should be leaving a bit of headroom? make sure that you send them your hottest 'solo' preset/scene to make sure that you have as much room as possible when FOH is line checking you. I have all my 'Solo' scenes already a few dB louder, and with a little more mids to cut through the mix without their help.

 

[Rex]

Honest question on the “leave yourself headroom” thought…
How much do you guys feel you can get? I always figured when you did line levels the sound guy was adjusting input signal pretty close to the red. No concerns of clipping on the input?

The sound tech should be adjusting your channel gain to put you around 0 dB on his meter. That's well below clipping.

Of course, the ideal situation is when the tech is attentive to the mix, and you don't have to play those games.

 

[fractalz]

It doesn’t matter how much level you send. They can reduce it to 0 at the board if they want. The mix is the job of the mixer (gear) and the person operating it.

If you suddenly send more level during the gig, you can clip the mixer making it sound worse.

But, if you don't send enough, they'll give up and leave you low in the mix.

 

[chris]

But, if you don't send enough, they'll give up and leave you low in the mix.

“Sending enough” should be taken care of in the first minute of level check. It’s usually after that point where it goes wrong.

I’ve had people hold back for level check, then turn up 12 dB right at the start of the gig. (Everything was through my stage monitors, so it wasn’t a guitar amp or something.) My channels were leveled properly and the mix was totally fine, but that sudden increase clipped the input of the mixer and it sounded bad everywhere.

They ask me to fix it and I tell them to turn back down and they couldn’t understand why. So I reduced the channel gain so it didn’t clip and it got quieter of course. So he turns up more and it clips again.

I told him I’ll put more into the monitors if that’s what he wants - he said it was totally fine during sound check - but he has to turn back down so it doesn’t clip. He still didn’t understand.

Once something is going to a mixer, the mixer needs to be the thing that sends more level to mains and monitors. Yes there are some thresholds and tolerances where you can turn up slightly without ruining things, but most people turn up way too much at a time not understanding everything is in a unified signal path and the very first gain stage is extremely important.

 

[northtrader]

Alright, as someone who plays in a band and also regularly runs the sound desk at a venue for other bands that visit the venue, I couldn't bite my tongue any longer.

I could hear myself fine, but as far as the audience was concerned I got lost in the mix.

We're three pages into this thread and I don't recall reading how this was determined.

The venue I regularly run the desk for is IEM exclusively. There's nothing that makes me roll my eyes faster than a musician/singer who plays with one IEM in and then 'judges' the house MIX from the splash back they're hearing from the open ear. There's absolutely no way an 'on stage' musician, situated behind the FOH speakers, with one IEM in and one IEM out can evaluate the FOH mix. The only way they are in a position to comment on the FOH mix is to step out in front of the speakers and hear the actual FOH sound. This can be done one of two ways: either play into a looper and then have the band play the song while the loop is playing back and step into the auditorium or have the sound guy record a song and play the recording back through the FOH while the band (or the singular 'concerned' musician) stands in the place where the audience is standing.

I always figured when you did line levels the sound guy was adjusting input signal pretty close to the red.

Yep. Maximize the signal to noise ratio. I always ask the musicians/singers to 'give me your loudest signal' during sound check and I adjust the input to peak about 4-5 dB before clipping the input of the channel.
Of course, I pay attention during the gig because most of the time the sound check 'loudest signal' is not really the loudest they're going to send to the board. When they start getting into a song, that's when the 'loudest' shows up and I usually have to back the input signal a bit to prevent clipping.

I’ve had people hold back for level check, then turn up 12 dB right at the start of the gig.

Yep. Been there many times. Of course, an astute sound desk tech will catch that and adjust the channel input gain accordingly. He's got the ultimate control of the 'mix' and only a self deceived performer has trouble grasping that fact.
Musicians 'holding back' during sound check, only to 'boost' their signal once the show starts is a sure fire way to have a perturbed tech who, depending on their maturity level, may 'answer back' with a "yeah, take that" response and slide your FOH signal deep into oblivion.


I've also been on the flip side. Playing a gig, only to find out from a trusted audience participant, that your contributions to the song were not turned up enough in the mix and got lost in the experience.
Yes, that is very frustrating to hear, especially after spending hours on practicing 'the right guitar parts' in preparation for the gig, only to have it seemingly 'go unheard'.

All that to say this: work with the sound desk tech up front and, if he/she doesn't seem receptive, let it slide. That's what I had to learn to do. It's tough.

 

[vika12]

Alright, as someone who plays in a band and also regularly runs the sound desk at a venue for other bands that visit the venue, I couldn't bite my tongue any longer.


We're three pages into this thread and I don't recall reading how this was determined.

The venue I regularly run the desk for is IEM exclusively. There's nothing that makes me roll my eyes faster than a musician/singer who plays with one IEM in and then 'judges' the house MIX from the splash back they're hearing from the open ear. There's absolutely no way an 'on stage' musician, situated behind the FOH speakers, with one IEM in and one IEM out can evaluate the FOH mix. The only way they are in a position to comment on the FOH mix is to step out in front of the speakers and hear the actual FOH sound. This can be done one of two ways: either play into a looper and then have the band play the song while the loop is playing back and step into the auditorium or have the sound guy record a song and play the recording back through the FOH while the band (or the singular 'concerned' musician) stands in the place where the audience is standing.


Yep. Maximize the signal to noise ratio. I always ask the musicians/singers to 'give me your loudest signal' during sound check and I adjust the input to peak about 4-5 dB before clipping the input of the channel.
Of course, I pay attention during the gig because most of the time the sound check 'loudest signal' is not really the loudest they're going to send to the board. When they start getting into a song, that's when the 'loudest' shows up and I usually have to back the input signal a bit to prevent clipping.


Yep. Been there many times. Of course, an astute sound desk tech will catch that and adjust the channel input gain accordingly. He's got the ultimate control of the 'mix' and only a self deceived performer has trouble grasping that fact.
Musicians 'holding back' during sound check, only to 'boost' their signal once the show starts is a sure fire way to have a perturbed tech who, depending on their maturity level, may 'answer back' with a "yeah, take that" response and slide your FOH signal deep into oblivion.


I've also been on the flip side. Playing a gig, only to find out from a trusted audience participant, that your contributions to the song were not turned up enough in the mix and got lost in the experience.
Yes, that is very frustrating to hear, especially after spending hours on practicing 'the right guitar parts' in preparation for the gig, only to have it seemingly 'go unheard'.

All that to say this: work with the sound desk tech up front and, if he/she doesn't seem receptive, let it slide. That's what I had to learn to do. It's tough.

I do not use in-ears. We've had many gigs where the sound has remained balanced among the instruments throughout the gig. At this show, the levels of our sound check song were fine. Things went down hill from there level-wise. The other guitar and the keys "became" louder -- I don't know if they turned up for a solo and then did not turn back down, or if the sound guy turned them up.

 

[HoovHead]

It doesn’t matter how much level you send. They can reduce it to 0 at the board if they want. The mix is the job of the mixer (gear) and the person operating it.

If you suddenly send more level during the gig, you can clip the mixer making it sound worse.

Sandbagging the sound-person may get you put into the penalty box.

 

[Megahertzz]

I'm thinking it's not so much a volume issue, but an EQ issue. It's important that each instrument has their own place in the frequency spectrum. Too much low end, and you're going to be fighting the bass and the kick drum for dominance in the lower frequencies. Too much high end, and you're occupying the same frequencies as the cymbals. Guitar tone should be mid focused, and doesn't always sound good on its own.