Is it me or the sound guy?

As a FOH guy with a fair amount of experience any sound guy leaving you flapping in the wind solo during your set isn't invested in making you sound good.

I wish I had a cool trick to offer you but this is one of those situations where you're relying on FOH to make you sound rocking and there's only so much you can do if the sound guy isn't holding up his end. That's a shame.
 
I will add one thing that I think is very important. Take feedback from audience members with a grain of salt unless they're musicians or live sound engineers. Even well meaning friends have a skewed perspective on what a mix should sound like. They can also be influenced by where they are in the room or who they're there to see etc. I have a couple regulars who see different bands I play in who insist that the guitar is never loud enough. Most of the time I have to respectfully disagree. As much as I want to crank up and go crazy I also want to be respectful of the gig.

What you can do is use a separate output to your wedge to just have more volume coming off the stage if needed without affecting the FOH signal.
All good points. At almost every gig, the singers girlfriend comes up at some point and says that the singer isn't loud enough. All channels are 'trimmed' to the same input levels. the singer's channel fader is a good 10+ dB above everything else. I see videos of shows all of the time, and he is plenty loud enough.

My mom usually says that I am not loud enough (go figure). I see videos of shows all of the time, and the guitar plenty loud enough.


To the O.P....

Try to listen to as many videos of your shows, different venues, different spots in the room, different recorders, etc... to get a good idea of what is going on with your mix, and how your presets work within it.

Your presets could be the culprit too? You likely have your monitor level on stage relatively louder than the FOH mix will have you. So you won't notice it as much? More 'mids'?
 
I will add one thing that I think is very important. Take feedback from audience members with a grain of salt unless they're musicians or live sound engineers. Even well meaning friends have a skewed perspective on what a mix should sound like. They can also be influenced by where they are in the room or who they're there to see etc. I have a couple regulars who see different bands I play in who insist that the guitar is never loud enough. Most of the time I have to respectfully disagree. As much as I want to crank up and go crazy I also want to be respectful of the gig.

What you can do is use a separate output to your wedge to just have more volume coming off the stage if needed without affecting the FOH signal.
Hi Rosh, yes, an audience member whom I know told me he could not hear me. Also, we tape all of our shows and I have trouble hearing myself on the audio -- even after the sound guy turned me up it still wasn't enough. Remember too that other band members often turn up (and may not turn back down) so the sound person needs to stay on top of things and level everyone out ...
 
I don't get into volume wars. If a drummer, f ex ;-) starts getting loud, first inclination is to turn up. I stay put, not getting into the battle and the ear plugs go in. It's not always fair to say the sound tech is not invested in the band or his job. These guys in casino's have other obligations and can't baby sit the mix for hours. If a band has good dynamics, there shouldn't be much to do any way.

Playing devil's advocate... Moke mentioned he sets the singer's channel trim the same as everyone else (i'm assuming he means every channel is metering the same general level) and has his channel up +10 on the fader. You have to realize a couple things. The human voice can't complete with an acoustic drum set or guitar amps. A singer has no similar stage volume, it's all FOH so +10 is meaningless. Great that you think he's loud enough in the house but is he beating the $h!t out of his voice to be heard?
 
This was one of the perks of being in a very loud band - the only thing you might not hear well was the vocals, and the vocalist was the guy who decided to start a really loud band.

As was mentioned, leave yourself some wiggle room.
 
Lots---if not most or all of those--- FOH engineers come with the place you are playing in.
No option to fire in most cases.
you do how ever have an option of were you play. Of course if it is a dive that the house sound man cant be bothered to run the sound and lights for the entire show, chances are the patrons are to drunk to know the difference.
 
I will add one thing that I think is very important. Take feedback from audience members with a grain of salt unless they're musicians or live sound engineers. Even well meaning friends have a skewed perspective on what a mix should sound like. They can also be influenced by where they are in the room or who they're there to see etc. I have a couple regulars who see different bands I play in who insist that the guitar is never loud enough. Most of the time I have to respectfully disagree. As much as I want to crank up and go crazy I also want to be respectful of the gig.

THIS
 
How much did you tip the sound guy before your set? ;)
I know this is meant to be a joke but there is a lot of truth here. If you take the time to meet and talk with the sound guy, develop a good rapport with them, things will usually go smoothly. Conversely, if you're demeaning and demanding, things can go south quickly.

You may know more than them when it comes to mixing but you're not going to get anywhere by coming off as a know it all. Even if they're 'just' the venue sound guy, showing them you appreciate them being there, what they do and what your needs are before the show can result in better than decent sounding mixes.

If you're lucky enough and they're a legitimate audio engineer, still go out of your way to see if there's anything they need and ask them for a moment to run through your setup and what you typically expect in the mix. Having one person as a liaison with the FOH can also make things go smoothly rather than 5 guys telling them what they want.

Bottom line, just take a moment and be nice. Not getting what you need is going to affect you, and the performance, more than the sound guy so it's in your best interest.
 
I will add one thing that I think is very important. Take feedback from audience members with a grain of salt unless they're musicians or live sound engineers. Even well meaning friends have a skewed perspective on what a mix should sound like. They can also be influenced by where they are in the room or who they're there to see etc. I have a couple regulars who see different bands I play in who insist that the guitar is never loud enough. Most of the time I have to respectfully disagree. As much as I want to crank up and go crazy I also want to be respectful of the gig.

What you can do is use a separate output to your wedge to just have more volume coming off the stage if needed without affecting the FOH signal.
This is so true. Audience members are even worse than geen sound techs, who have learned three things and know everything. :)
 
I kind of feel like this has become endemic in live settings. FOH has changed so much in the past 20 years or
so. I loathe the bass heavy mixes that are now very much the norm. Guitar gets drowned out and dumbed down
at the board.

The popularity of EDM, Hip-Hop, and Pop Music Production has changed what we hear in live settings and the
way FOH engineers literally "hear" music and how they mix the house.

Am I wrong?
It’s not new. Every club I played in the 90s had bass heavy mixes.
 
Apparently George Lynch's and Don Dokken's ages long beef was about how
prominent in the mix the guitars were vis a vis the vocals----and vice versa.

It would happen when mixing/mastering an album and live supporting those albums.

The perceived "volume war" is all too real. ;)
 
Hi Rosh, yes, an audience member whom I know told me he could not hear me. Also, we tape all of our shows and I have trouble hearing myself on the audio -- even after the sound guy turned me up it still wasn't enough. Remember too that other band members often turn up (and may not turn back down) so the sound person needs to stay on top of things and level everyone out ...

A couple things to try.
1) Give yourself some headroom to turn up. Either on the output on the FM3, your wedge, even backing down a volume pedal if you use one so you have some flexibility to turn up. For years I used the EWS Scott Henderson Subtle volume pedal that would basically be a master volume at my feet so I could turn up or down my volume throughout the night and remain dynamic through the gig

2) Hopefully you have a solid relationship with your bandmates where you can be diplomatic and have everyone turn down or play quieter throughout the night. Most modern PA systems can do the heavy lifting for a band regardless of venue size so I don't find it a necessity anymore to have the players on stage control the volume coming off it. Just play loud enough where you can hear yourself and do your thing. There are plenty of examples of musicians using combo amps and small drum kits playing arenas.

3) Dial in your guitar tones to be more brash and cutting. It may sound really bright and harsh by itself but it fits perfectly under the cymbals but above the snare drum and doesn't fight the vocals. If you listen to a lot of Pete Thorn's patches and tones they sound really bright on their own but they absolutely work great live. He has an ear to really hear what will work in a mix.

4) If the soundguy/soundgal sucks, the oundguy/soundgal sucks. Unfortunately, there's not much you can do if they're not willing to work with you. I could go on and on about the horror stories I've experienced.

Lastly, and most importantly of all. If you have a recording of your band live, then you can play along to the recording and dial in your tones against it to be brighter and more cutting (as in tip #3) as opposed to louder to really hear how your tone fits in the mix. Even better if you have multi-track recordings - You can just mute your guitar and record and tweak against the recording till your tone really cuts through.
 
Apparently George Lynch's and Don Dokken's ages long beef was about how
prominent in the mix the guitars were vis a vis the vocals----and vice versa.

It would happen when mixing/mastering an album and live supporting those albums.

The perceived "volume war" is all too real. ;)
iu
 
Playing devil's advocate... Moke mentioned he sets the singer's channel trim the same as everyone else (i'm assuming he means every channel is metering the same general level) and has his channel up +10 on the fader. You have to realize a couple things. The human voice can't complete with an acoustic drum set or guitar amps. A singer has no similar stage volume, it's all FOH so +10 is meaningless. Great that you think he's loud enough in the house but is he beating the $h!t out of his voice to be heard?
No amps at all, completely silent stage. Every thing was direct, even the electronic drums.
 
I kind of feel like this has become endemic in live settings. FOH has changed so much in the past 20 years or
so. I loathe the bass heavy mixes that are now very much the norm. Guitar gets drowned out and dumbed down
at the board.

The popularity of EDM, Hip-Hop, and Pop Music Production has changed what we hear in live settings and the
way FOH engineers literally "hear" music and how they mix the house.

Am I wrong?
I think this is true...
It really depends if you got a sound tech that knows the difference of music styles and how to mix them or in my case better, one who likes Rock or Metal and knowing his equipment. Years ago we got an openair gig and a young rockband supporting us.
They wanted to tell the soundguy how he should mix drums and bass and this experienced tech told them that they should let him do his job or if they want to sound like HipHop as a Rockband because of their suggestions ?
On a little festival I've done stagehands for 6 years we had every year the same stage soundtech and foh soundtech and they really know their equipment and were experienced and so the bands and audience were satisfied every year again.
Sometimes when gigging we ask musician friends who visit our show to check the mix if there is not a really pro tech there and the bartender or some other person working there do the mix besides his or her job.
 
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