Is it me or are others in the same boat?

I often do a year-end wrap-up of products I tried that I found to be worth recommending. There weren't many this year, but here's one of them, which we'll call my two cents.

The Red Sound MF10s are a new favorite for me. I put them up against a few boutique-y tube combos at an invitational jam a few weeks ago and they simply soared. I used a PEQ to find a spot where I could sit in the mix and copy-pasted it to a few scenes with channel tweaks, and voila. Big sound. Clear sound. Great sound. I'm a stereo junkie, so there's that. I am a lifting lightweight too, and the pair of them weighs less than most tube amps. They're hard to get though, like everything these days.
Thanks M@, for sharing your review of the MF10's. Have you had a chance to test the Elis-8's, yet? They seem to be a good fit for smaller venues and are even lighter in weight.
 
This. Every single time

I've had the privilege to work with some of the world's best FOH engineers and they (re)tune the PA system to every venue. Usually with pink noise and sometimes pumping a recording of the previous night's show through the system etc to make sure they're compensating for whatever the Venue's acoustic properties add/subtract to the overall mix. This can be done with wedges as well using a good microphone mounted at the height of the musician to make sure the wedges are also consistent night to night. (If the band isn't using IEM)

With FAS gear, you're just doing this for your guitar sound.

If you want to know how much a room affects your sound, just take an acoustic guitar and play it every room of your house, then take it and play it outside. This is what a room can add/subtract.
Your post is from a month ago, but it speaks to something I've also wondered about: How does FOH deal with how this "room EQ" changes when the room fills up with people? I watched a video once where the FOH engineer mentioned the difference in the EQ between winter and summer, because of how the coats & hats and long-sleeve shirts people are wearing in winter can soak up the sounds. Are they still adjusting the EQ to the venue as the crowd files in, using the house music that's blaring through the PA at that time? (Although usually that music is Lo-Fi, on purpose as I understand it, so that when the band comes on, the perception of how much better they sound is heightened.)
Or do they just continue to make adjustments during the first few songs?

I guess what I'm really asking is, It seems to me that doing the pink noise thing in a practically-empty venue is like, without people, what's the point, and how close is that really going to get you?

I've been to many concerts where the house music played through the PA before the band started (not the Lo-Fi stuff I mentioned earlier) sounded much better than the actual band mix. Like, orders of magnitude better.
 
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Thanks M@, for sharing your review of the MF10's. Have you had a chance to test the Elis-8's, yet? They seem to be a good fit for smaller venues and are even lighter in weight.
I have both, if you are interested, please read my review in the amps and cabs section.
 
I have both, if you are interested, please read my review in the amps and cabs section.
Thanks for the reminder, Sashman, I did read your review when you first posted it as I have been researching the Red Sounds as well as other FRFR options. Your input was very helpful and has definitely had an influence on my leaning toward the Elis-8's. However, when I read M@'s post regarding his positive experience with the MF10's, I was curious as to whether he had any experience or comments regarding the Elis-8's.
 
Thanks for the reminder, Sashman, I did read your review when you first posted it as I have been researching the Red Sounds as well as other FRFR options. Your input was very helpful and has definitely had an influence on my leaning toward the Elis-8's. However, when I read M@'s post regarding his positive experience with the MF10's, I was curious as to whether he had any experience or comments regarding the Elis-8's.
Thank you for reading my review.
I absolutely get your point, it’s always good to have more opinions.
And I’m shure that besides Cliff M@ is one of the people that have the most experience with the Axe and what is gonna work with it.
 
Your post is from a month ago, but it speaks to something I've also wondered about: How does FOH deal with how this "room EQ" changes when the room fills up with people? I watched a video once where the FOH engineer mentioned the difference in the EQ between winter and summer, because of how the coats & hats and long-sleeve shirts people are wearing in winter can soak up the sounds. Are they still adjusting the EQ to the venue as the crowd files in, using the house music that's blaring through the PA at that time? (Although usually that music is Lo-Fi, on purpose as I understand it, so that when the band comes on, the perception of how much better they sound is heightened.)
Or do they just continue to make adjustments during the first few songs?

I guess what I'm really asking is, It seems to me that doing the pink noise thing in a practically-empty venue is like, without people, what's the point, and how close is that really going to get you?

I've been to many concerts where the house music played through the PA before the band started (not the Lo-Fi stuff I mentioned earlier) sounded much better than the actual band mix. Like, orders of magnitude better.
In my distinctly non-arena and decades old probably ignorant experience doing FOH, pink noise tuning is more about narrow-band anomalies that won't mostly be affected by lots of people arriving. They'll make it less reverberant (yay), and absorb highs, but peaky room resonances won't change that much, they're about room dimensions and your PA itself.

You have to listen during the show anyway, stuff changes, like band volume and amount of highs maybe. Still, having things somewhat flattened is a good starting point.
 
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I'm my distinctly non-arena and decades old probably ignorant experience doing FOH, pink noise tuning is more about narrow-band anomalies that won't mostly be affected by lots of people arriving. They'll make it less reverberant (yay), and absorb highs, but peaky room resonances won't change that much, they're about room dimensions and your PA itself.

You have to listen during the show anyway, stuff changes, like band volume and amount of highs maybe. Still, having things somewhat flattened is a good starting point.
Gotchya!
 
I have 1 RedSound Elis.8. Has anyone here compared it to the MF10 - not for volume - more for tonal character?
Elis.8 has more midrange character due to the 8" woofer.
I suggest everybody to reset your mind about the evaluation of these cabinets.
You can't use the same method you use for typical guitar cabinets.
It is the same way you compare headphones, Monitors, Car Audio, Airpods etc...
These systems do not influence the sound shaping!!
Sound monitoring request a different approach, more oriented to the professional audio.
You have to change your mind and think like a sound engineer because you are out of the guitar world.
My two cents,
 
Your post is from a month ago, but it speaks to something I've also wondered about: How does FOH deal with how this "room EQ" changes when the room fills up with people? I watched a video once where the FOH engineer mentioned the difference in the EQ between winter and summer, because of how the coats & hats and long-sleeve shirts people are wearing in winter can soak up the sounds. Are they still adjusting the EQ to the venue as the crowd files in, using the house music that's blaring through the PA at that time? (Although usually that music is Lo-Fi, on purpose as I understand it, so that when the band comes on, the perception of how much better they sound is heightened.)
Or do they just continue to make adjustments during the first few songs?

I guess what I'm really asking is, It seems to me that doing the pink noise thing in a practically-empty venue is like, without people, what's the point, and how close is that really going to get you?

I've been to many concerts where the house music played through the PA before the band started (not the Lo-Fi stuff I mentioned earlier) sounded much better than the actual band mix. Like, orders of magnitude better.

I think the whole "when the room fills up with people" idea isn't that accurate. I don't know when that came into the narrative of affecting the room sound in a significant way. A lot of the time, tuning the PA is also dealing with the actual PA system of the venue if the band/artist isn't carrying their own.

For example, think about the LA forum, there are already seats in place and the seats that are modular to provide more or less of the GA/floor space for "the pit". They actually pull in and out which is interesting to watch. Putting a body in each one of the chairs isn't going to affect the sonic properties of that room that the chairs/seating haven't already influenced. In addition they curtain/cordon off the nosebleeds on shows where they don't sell those upper seats.

I'll cede that every venue is different and obviously every production/band is different so we can probably quantify how much a full house would affect the sound but thats very venue dependent. I made a general statement, but can probably think of specifics where the amount of people would have more or less influence if there aren't already things like seats, curtains etc above.
 
I think the whole "when the room fills up with people" idea isn't that accurate. I don't know when that came into the narrative of affecting the room sound in a significant way. A lot of the time, tuning the PA is also dealing with the actual PA system of the venue if the band/artist isn't carrying their own.

For example, think about the LA forum, there are already seats in place and the seats that are modular to provide more or less of the GA/floor space for "the pit". They actually pull in and out which is interesting to watch. Putting a body in each one of the chairs isn't going to affect the sonic properties of that room that the chairs/seating haven't already influenced. In addition they curtain/cordon off the nosebleeds on shows where they don't sell those upper seats.

I'll cede that every venue is different and obviously every production/band is different so we can probably quantify how much a full house would affect the sound but thats very venue dependent. I made a general statement, but can probably think of specifics where the amount of people would have more or less influence if there aren't already things like seats, curtains etc above.
An empty gym is at least somewhat different than one that's wall to wall with people.
 
I think the whole "when the room fills up with people" idea isn't that accurate.
Huh?? I'm not FOH, but even I can grasp the idea that plastic seats are more reflective than people. I heard it in an interview with the sound guys on a Rush tour, and both the monitor mixer and FOH engineer made comments about people, and how they absorb sound. Here's a clip cued up:

And it was the monitor guy who claimed summer people absorb sound different than winter-dressed people.
 
Huh?? I'm not FOH, but even I can grasp the idea that plastic seats are more reflective than people. I heard it in an interview with the sound guys on a Rush tour, and both the monitor mixer and FOH engineer made comments about people, and how they absorb sound. Here's a clip cued up:

And it was the monitor guy who claimed summer people absorb sound different than winter-dressed people.

Maybe they're the FOH equivalent of Eric Johnson with batteries? ;)
 
Late to the party here, but with a relevant story that might prove supportive:

I've had most of the major modelers over the last ten-ish years, including the Axe FX II, the AX8, the Helix, HX Stomp, and now the Axe FX III MK 2. All of them have sounded amazing for recording, and Fractal's stuff has just been a better match for that use case. As someone who plays a lot of styles, I've always wanted to go fully digital, but I could just never consistently get a "good" sound for certain use cases (e.g. venues with shitty PAs - there are many, rehearsal spaces with shitty PAs - there are many, etc). I'd just had too many sessions or gigs where I went fully digital, and sounded "off".

Folks often talk about dialing in presets for specific volumes and venues, and that's a real thing that helps a lot. AND I finally bit the bullet and got a Matrix GT1000FX + 2 cabs (a 2x12 w/V30s for heavier stuff, and a 1x12 with a Eminence Alessandro GA64 for Fender-y stuff). Dude. It's amazing. Sounds ridiculous.

So now, at home, I can choose between FRFR for recording + certain use cases and cab/power amp stuff for jams, I can go to a rehearsal space and simply use their cabs or FRFR solution depending on my preference, and I can be ready to gig with either option as well. This has finally put the nail in the coffin on using tube amps for me. I sound great - like myself - everywhere, with minimal effort. You could not convince me I'm missing out by not having a tube amp, at this point. It's simply not true.
 
Huh?? I'm not FOH, but even I can grasp the idea that plastic seats are more reflective than people. I heard it in an interview with the sound guys on a Rush tour, and both the monitor mixer and FOH engineer made comments about people, and how they absorb sound. Here's a clip cued up:

And it was the monitor guy who claimed summer people absorb sound different than winter-dressed people.


Like I said in the post. We can quantify how much that (people in a venue) affects the sound. Is it 10% or 90%? The narrative in internet forums seems to be that when a venue fills up with people, that affects the sound in such a drastic way that the venue has little or no influence whatsoever.

He mentions reflections (concrete floors etc) and making an educated guess. Again, it's very educated to compensate for that. It's not like he's keeping the EQ flat until showtime. You can compensate for a room, the system and other factors and do some small surgery once people are in the venue.
 
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