Is Cab Pack 10 currently the only one using Mic + DI?

I think it would be best if everyone understood what mic+di actually means. It's the exactly same principle I've been using for all of my Cab Packs. So it's safe to say that Cab Pack 7, 8 and 9 are using my own "mic+di".

However there are only a handful of people who have experienced a good A/B comparison. I have. I'm going to do a comparison thread this week explaining the difference. SS power amp VS mic+di VS my method VS the real thing. So then we'll know which of these methods is the closest one.
 
The upcoming Axe-Fest Germany 2015 Cab-Pack will also have a "MIC+DI" "Idealized"-variant beside the Tube-Amp colored variant and some "virtual in-betweens", based on re-adjusting the Tube Amps DI and referencing at the Idelaized MIC+DI variant "answer". Mostly differently in the frequency bandwidth, resulting in some flavors, which could (COULD!!!!) be preferable to some. That`s because i´ve done them.

At the end of the day we could discuss accurateness & authenticy in comparison to the real deal - then, MIC+DI is for sure a recommended way to go. Or we discuss prefered coloration, what every MIC and MIC placement position will do anyway... this should not be forgotten! At the end of the day we want have nice tones! And nice are sometimes everything but accurate to any reference ;)

It should be also mentioned: If you do NOT monitor through FRFR, but guitar-cabinet, you normally listen also the used Poweramp, right?! If so, a line level signal with a - say - IR from your personal cabinet should be MIC only method! If not, you did not send the same signal to FOH, you hear for yourself!

Anyway: MIC+Di or Clarks or the counterpart of this tecnic of myself (which should be nearly identical to Clarks ... :roll) is a superior way to achieve most accurate results when comparing the actual setup.

But it can`t said enough: The most important, the superior most impact of the sound of an IR comes from MIC choice and placement! The difference between a MIC only, captured through a good solid state amp vs. MIC+DI with any Amp could be very, veeeery small!

That said, we should not uprate the advantage of MIC+DI! Excellent IRs based on MIC only are still what they are: Excellent IRs!
 
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Morphosis said:
That said, we should not uprate the advantage of MIC+DI! Excellent IRs based on MIC only are still what they are: Excellent IRs!
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I would have to agree here. I think the key thing is what sounds the best to you. I have tried or purchased every IR and cab pack released (I think) and for me, currently, I still find the OH V3 cabs to be the best option followed closely by CK's cab packs.
 
Heck, in the spirit of information, if I have the time I may do an A/B too just to satisfy some curiosities out there. :) If I did it, mine would consist of 4 internal factors:

File A
- Axe-Fx generated sweeps
- Mic + DI method using solid state Bryston and Earthworks ZDT preamp
- Ultra-Res IR
- Cab Block loader

File B
- My DAW generated sweeps
- V3 outboard
- 500 ms .wav IR
- Convolution Reverb VST

All put to a full mix recording, an older one (my old, out of date KsE End of Heartache demo) as I don't have time right now for more. In an attempt to prevent (as much as possible) the tendency-to-not-be-so-nice versus/camp mentality, I likely would not disclose which was which.

Would anybody be interested in that?
 
I think the A/B thing would be cool.

With a Bryston amp and Earthworks pre, I'm guessing the reference .ir, the stuff removed, might be very slight anyway :)
 
I would definitely be interested in that. And you can share the results with me at least.

I do these tests every now and then also. When I did my first tests for Cab Pack 7 almost a year ago I was obviously comparing the industry standard of that time (SS power amp) vs my "TEH" technique (which can now be called mic+di I guess). I must say that they are close. *woot?!* The most obvious difference was in the low end. Basically SS had too much low end (talking about sub lows and +1-2dB) when compared to the real miked signal. The waveform looks completely different because of this but if you add a low cut it's probably quite hard to tell them apart. Using a tube amp resulted in at least a slight speaker resonance effect meaning that it was easy to make good sounding IRs but in a mix they disappeared but obviously this depends on the amp you're using. F.ex. Kevin uses a tube amp that is neutral. My technique includes making sure that I'm capturing the exact signal that is being fed to the cab while making the capture. In my tests the DI itself added color. Bare in mind that using mic+di will remove this color but when you're placing the mic you are actually listening to a colored version of that mic position so you're not hearing the "truth". There are a few tricks I do to avoid this in my technique. Is it obvious that I'm a geek?

The reality is that most of the difference happens in the low end of the IR which most people will filter out anyways. A normal guitar tube amp will most likely scoop the mids heavily giving you a nice sounding guitar tone on it's own but putting that in the mix will quickly tell you that something's wrong. Using an SS power amp will be so much easier for most people and you will get that exact sound that you're hearing when you're placing you microphone. Not all DIs add color but if yours does then you could place the mics without the DI and then plug the DI in for the capturing process. I shoot too many IRs to do it that way but if you're shooting under a hundred IRs I think it might be worth a try. :)

EDIT: I wanted to point out that the differences that you hear in these techniques are in the dynamic side. When you palm mute etc. That's where you'll hear which one works best and is most authentic. It still doesn't change the fact that mic position and cab are 99,9999999% of your sound.
 
I think this is possibly more of a perception problem than anything else. And when Cliff states that

FractalAudio said:
I'll say it again: the Mic+DI technique yields IRs that are vastly superior to other techniques. I use nothing but the new IRs now. Even the venerable TV Mix has been replaced.
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and

FractalAudio said:
That is one of the cabs from our last session. All these cabs were captured using the new "Mic+DI" technique directly into the Axe-Fx. It yields far more accurate and clear IRs. We will be releasing that session as a Cab Pack in the coming days.
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and I think there was a post that he even said that he has been in contact with “3rd party IR vendors”, which presumably is you guys, to switch to this method (can’t find the post now though so I may be wrong on that one).

I don’t think that there’s anyone that doubts the quality of IR’s that you guys have produced, and when Cliff puts this much weight behind this, we are obviously a lot of people that trust him. So while you are perfectly free to quote

ownhammer said:
theory/logical reasoning, testing and result, practical application, artistic direction, preferred workflow, platform diversity capability, future friendliness, and personal preference
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all day long. There will be a nagging feeling in the back in our minds that things could be even better if you also released IR’s using the Mix+Di method. At least as an alternative to your own preferred method.
 
Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more with the quoted text. As such putting time and effort into something I feel inferior is, for lack of a nicer phrase, a waste of time. :)

I have over 2000 libraries sitting in queue, so time management is a factor I need to consider with much weight. Quite frankly, it's quite maddening looking at what I have ahead of me. :nightmare:
 
Johan Allard said:
There will be a nagging feeling in the back in our minds that things could be even better if you also released IR’s using the Mix+Di method. At least as an alternative to your own preferred method.
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I thought you stated the speculation accurately in that FAS is recommending the Mic+DI technique over the Mic only technique.

But that doesn't give me a nagging feeling about a possible improvement in a 3rd-party IR. I can't automatically make that leap.

A big part of what you get with OH and Clark are their expertise. I have to trust their skill and evaluate their products in terms of works or doesn't work for me.
 
There are no other packs other than Cab Pack 10 that use "true" Mic+DI technique. Using the output of the reference amp as the deconvolution is only part of the equation. The processing in the Axe-Fx II is unique. It doesn't simply deconvolve the reference amp signal with the mic signal, it does a Volterra kernel extraction. No other product that I'm aware does this.

Regardless, the results speak for themselves. Cab Pack 10 is the best sounding IR collection ever produced.
 
I am with barhrecods some times you want 1 sound some times another it is great to have all options! I have bought OH IR's and Fractal packs CK's included and I like the test samples of what Morphsois is currently working on and many of the freebees on the forum and use many of them depending on how I feel when I make the preset! so lets not compare to much and state one is better then another this would just screw things up because my mind would want me to use the best one!!! so then I would have to redo many presets(no fun) lets just keep rocking and you IR guys just keep making them better the only way you know how!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
ownhammer said:
Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more with the quoted text. As such putting time and effort into something I feel inferior is, for lack of a nicer phrase, a waste of time. :)

I have over 2000 libraries sitting in queue, so time management is a factor I need to consider with much weight. Quite frankly, it's quite maddening looking at what I have ahead of me. :nightmare:
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Correct me if I am wrong though Kevin. You are purposefully wanting the color of different components ie the different power amps ect right? It seems like Cliff is always trying to eliminate any color other than the actual Mic color. It is like yo are after an Orange and he is after a Apple and both of you are looking for the best Orange/ Apple you can
 
A new technique is available now. That doesn't mean IRs you've enjoyed before are suddenly bad. Therefore techniques used prior aren't suddenly bad either.

The new method may sound great. Perhaps better. But that doesn't make anything or method before worse than it was before.

If it did, FAS would immediately remove all previous Factory Cabs in a Firmware update. But those still work and sound good. Options. Use what you prefer. OH sounds amazing. CK sounds amazing. Cab Pack 10 sounds amazing.
 
Chris@AxeFxTutorials said:
A new technique is available now. That doesn't mean IRs you've enjoyed before are suddenly bad. Therefore techniques used prior aren't suddenly bad either.

The new method may sound great. Perhaps better. But that doesn't make anything or method before worse than it was before.

If it did, FAS would immediately remove all previous Factory Cabs in a Firmware update. But those still work and sound good. Options. Use what you prefer. OH sounds amazing. CK sounds amazing. Cab Pack 10 sounds amazing.
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This is indeed a fact. I have been using the Uber Cab t75/v30 Cab since day one on the ii and I had one of the first maybe 200 units. I only just now stopped using it in the last month. As you all know a boat load of IR's have come out since the ii was released and nothing swayed me from my Uber cab. When it is good it is good
 
brokenvail said:
I am pretty sure that is some Star Wars/ Star Trek type of stuff
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Volterra kernels are the mathematical foundation that the Acustica Audio Nebula platform was built on many years ago. Lucas most certainly is not behind this one. :lol It's the best sounding technology for this kind of thing by a fair margin, and it irks me to no end that it hasn't caught on yet. I would love to do more Nebula stuff as I did a half decade ago and because of market interest have dropped the ball on the last couple, but hope to pick it back up will when I can spare the development time for it.

No point in puffing up chests and egos and arguing on the internet guys, my sound clips will put the issue to bed if/when I have time for it. ;)

Enjoy playing your guitars, some of us never get the chance to anymore. :)
 
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