IRs: How to avoid overkill and time suck?

pima1234

pima1234

Fractal Fanatic
Thousands of files to weed through. Some require converting and/or renaming. Then there's trying to remember what the files names mean, and which cabs or type are recommended for which amps. Then there's the actual audition process. (This, on top of trying to remember as much of the manuals as possible. LOL)

But in all seriousness, who actually has time for all this (other than those few who are able to actually make a living with it)?

I mean, there is no doubt, not one shred, that IRs are an extremely important part of getting the right sound. And, that the technology has advanced by leaps and bounds recently. I never dreamed digital could ever sound this good! But surely there must be an easier way.

Or, is it really that same way in the studio? (Taking loads of time to find just the right mic or combination of mics to get that sound.) When I've recorded electric guitars by miking amps, it didn't take me long at all to get a good sound, let alone just useable, decent sounds.

Back when I owned real amps/cabs, I had a 2, maybe 3 that I would use with certain amps, 2 or 3 other cabs I might use with other amps, and a couple more to use with other different types of amps. That was it. No big deal. Easy to use and play. Mic position? For me, quick and easy. Of course, I no longer have a soundproof studio. (And I grew tired of all the space amps and cabs take up, not to mention all the pedals!) Hence the Axe FX. Brought in to save the day!

Now, I find it fairly easy now (finally) to dial in pretty good sounds with the Axe FX, even just using the included IRs. Shoot; even the many free ones available can sound awesome (and I think we're all really grateful for those, so thanks to all who have shot all these great new UR and HR IRs).

So I guess my question is, "Where is the point of no return? Or, "Is there one?"

What do others do to lessen the time it can take?
 
What Al said. Seriously, I can't imagine not having that tool just because of everything that you said.

For me it's about having a predetermined goal in mind from the beginning. It also helps that I know what I kind of like in terms of a typical mix so I can start out with those mics from the beginning. An SM57 and an R121 with some room will usually get me where I am going to end up anyway pretty quickly. I don't feel compelled to really venture into auditioning 500 different IR's of the same cab unless I really can't get something to work. There's this thing where people tend to focus too much on what may be possible rather than what they are doing at that moment so there's always that "what about the next one". Conversely don't get hung up on trying to make something work that isn't working because you think that it's the right mic, distance and cab. If it sucks than it sucks.

To be honest my problem isn't finding and mixing IR's as much as it is about organization. If I start out making a few Fender and than some Marshall and some Vox cabs and put them into the AxeFXII right in order than then next Fender cab I mix next week is going to be in a separate area than the other. Plus it just makes it a real pain in the ass to know what is what once you get a bunch loaded. I decided to break them up into groups of 10 so that I can have 10 basic flavors and load them as I go along. The other advantage is that if I replace one later on it is more likely to translate over to any patch that may have been using it much easier.

And don't forget about the looper or even re-amping to help you. Having two hands free and being able to concentrate on the sound rather than the playing may help you move through it faster. If you are using CabLab use the solo buttons and audition regularly. Bring each IR in one at a time to see what it contributes (at least that works for me).

Just don't think that you have to mix every IR or that every IR is going to be usable. A lot of these libraries have IR's that are there because they were using a systematic approach and even if it wasn't a great sounding IR they'd include it for the sake of having a complete set.
 
It's a black hole. I've spent so much time collecting and organizing my library. I converted all my RedWirez to Ultra Res even though I know for most of them it is pointless since they aren't long enough to take advantage of the format. I troll the forums looking for all the user IRs and professional demos and give-aways, plus there is the stuff Fractal has included with the FW updates plus my commercial libraries from Fractal and OwnHammer. I've spent so much time auditioning and mixing IRs. I think the results have really improved with ultra res and the newer IRs available. But when I compare the stuff I've made with the IRs in the Axe-FX and the OwnHammer mix IRs it seems like I really haven't needed to expend all of this effort. I would say create restrictions (a concept employed by Jack White). Limit yourself to just what is in the Axe-FX and maybe a couple of new libraries. Decide in advance how many hours per week you want to spend auditioning and mixing IRs. Limit the total number of IRs you use. All my user slots are full but I usually use just a handful for the most part.
 
Krakadon said:
It's a black hole. I've spent so much time collecting and organizing my library. I converted all my RedWirez to Ultra Res even though I know for most of them it is pointless since they aren't long enough to take advantage of the format. I troll the forums looking for all the user IRs and professional demos and give-aways, plus there is the stuff Fractal has included with the FW updates plus my commercial libraries from Fractal and OwnHammer. I've spent so much time auditioning and mixing IRs. I think the results have really improved with ultra res and the newer IRs available. But when I compare the stuff I've made with the IRs in the Axe-FX and the OwnHammer mix IRs it seems like I really haven't needed to expend all of this effort. I would say create restrictions (a concept employed by Jack White). Limit yourself to just what is in the Axe-FX and maybe a couple of new libraries. Decide in advance how many hours per week you want to spend auditioning and mixing IRs. Limit the total number of IRs you use. All my user slots are full but I usually use just a handful for the most part.
Click to expand...

Is it possible to convert Redwirez to UR?
 
My personal way of keeping sane comes from my experience with real speakers:

Vintage G12M for 90% tones
Mesa style V30 combined with Vintage G12M speakers for all higher gain/modern tones
My personal JBL Capture for SRV tones.

And thats it. I don't look at any other speakers. In my experience, most other speakers end up being variations of what the above can already do and tend to sacrifice things that matter to me like warmth, or mix cutting.



pima1234 said:
Thousands of files to weed through. Some require converting and/or renaming. Then there's trying to remember what the files names mean, and which cabs or type are recommended for which amps. Then there's the actual audition process. (This, on top of trying to remember as much of the manuals as possible. LOL)

But in all seriousness, who actually has time for all this (other than those few who are able to actually make a living with it)?

I mean, there is no doubt, not one shred, that IRs are an extremely important part of getting the right sound. And, that the technology has advanced by leaps and bounds recently. I never dreamed digital could ever sound this good! But surely there must be an easier way.

Or, is it really that same way in the studio? (Taking loads of time to find just the right mic or combination of mics to get that sound.) When I've recorded electric guitars by miking amps, it didn't take me long at all to get a good sound, let alone just useable, decent sounds.

Back when I owned real amps/cabs, I had a 2, maybe 3 that I would use with certain amps, 2 or 3 other cabs I might use with other amps, and a couple more to use with other different types of amps. That was it. No big deal. Easy to use and play. Mic position? For me, quick and easy. Of course, I no longer have a soundproof studio. (And I grew tired of all the space amps and cabs take up, not to mention all the pedals!) Hence the Axe FX. Brought in to save the day!

Now, I find it fairly easy now (finally) to dial in pretty good sounds with the Axe FX, even just using the included IRs. Shoot; even the many free ones available can sound awesome (and I think we're all really grateful for those, so thanks to all who have shot all these great new UR and HR IRs).

So I guess my question is, "Where is the point of no return? Or, "Is there one?"

What do others do to lessen the time it can take?
Click to expand...
 
The phenomena has been studied, and there's a book on it called "The Paradox of Choice: Why More is Less". It mainly talks about "Analysis Paralysis", and how it makes us unhappy. Having too many options leads to overthinking them out of several fears, the pertinent one in our case here most likely being the loss of the unknown which may have been a better choice.

I know it drives me nuts. No matter what amp/cab/IR I pick, I'm constantly wondering if there isn't a better one or a better combination in the bunch. This leads to the excessive auditioning that is a time sink, and the anxiety that I haven't done the best I could do.

Gamedojo may have the right idea - pick a few you know work, and work with them. Done properly, everything else would be more or less a variation on the theme, so you can ignore them unless some overwhelming evidence or motivation shows up to make you change your mind.

If nothing else, you'd spend more time playing than you have been.
 
Gamedojo said:
My personal way of keeping sane comes from my experience with real speakers:

Vintage G12M for 90% tones
Mesa style V30 combined with Vintage G12M speakers for all higher gain/modern tones
My personal JBL Capture for SRV tones.

And thats it. I don't look at any other speakers. In my experience, most other speakers end up being variations of what the above can already do and tend to sacrifice things that matter to me like warmth, or mix cutting.
Click to expand...
That's where really knowing what you are looking for comes in and to be honest if you are like me and don't have years of experience with other cabs and crap it can be a real steep learning curve from the start.

Another suggestion to kind of piggy back on Krakadon said; there are plenty of ready mixed IR's. Every company seems to have their style/flavor. I personally love the way that TAF does their mixed IR's so perhaps check out some demos from each and find out who fits your bill and go with them. There's a lot of redundancy once you get to the point that I think that many of us are starting to approach. And each one seem to offer a really good premixed IR selection.

As for the Redwirez IR's not being long enough in many cases I haven't really run into it being a major issue because you can mix them with other IR's that are longer. My main thing is just to get into a consistent format and I was surprised at how many actually did go over 170ms (not all, but a few). They still sound good and to date I think that they are still the most comprehensive selection out there.
 
I pretty much just use the TAF mix + room IR's, typically selecting an appropriate cab for the amp I'm modeling. If I can't quite get it where I want, then I'll usually fire up cab lab and mix something up with the individual IR's + room, but that's very infrequent. I also have the Ownhammer ultrarez pack and use a few cabs from that as well as the Cab pack 4. But to make things easy on myself I usually start with the mixed IR's for the appropriate cab type to match the amp/combo.
 
I'm in agreement with those having a direction. It's so easy to get a good sound with the Axe that if you're not looking for something specific, I don't know how much point there is in trolling through the IRs. However, if you have some goal in mind - a sound in your head, a type of sound you're trying to emulate, then you have a direction and knowing what the IRs do best can help limit the testing.

I'd heard that the simplest way is to test the extremes of each IR and then tune in from there. Depending on how many there are for a specific IR, it could cut down 2-4 tests per IR if you what you're after is that first test. Knowing which sounds you favor can also point you in a great starting point too.

Bottom line is having a direction greatly reduces the black hole syndrome. If you're not, then it's really just about different flavors and different moods.
 
If your having fun with it, it's hardly wasted time. Productive use of limited time ? Maybe not, but I know that I for one find spending an afternoon or evening playing with different IR's, tweaking stuff, mixing custom IR's etc to enjoyable.

Maybe its a different hobby than many conventional ones, but I find tweaking IR's and presets as fun as tweaking a pedal board, or trying different speakers in my cabs, or messing with my synths and samplers.

I may not make that much actual music, but its still fun just making different noises and cool tones
 
I had the same question when I bought the Cab Pack 3, the one with all of the Ownhammer captures in Ultrares. Its a true "first world problem". Not only are there a ton of cabs, they all have multiple captures from individual mics and then different mixes (Room, Vintage, Modern, etc....). Seriously, how is someone supposed to start out with this? Then I read a post from Scott Peterson who advised newbies to start out with the "Median" mixes when demoing cabs. From there, if your individual needs require more than this, branch out into other mixes. So what I did was imported only the "Median" mixes into my AxeFX and also gave them each friendly names, such as "69 Celestion Alnico Silver 112", and arranged them by 112, 212 and 412. It still took a while for me to do, but the result was something much more manageable.
 
IR makers are starting to provide "mixes" of cabs... such 2 or 3 mics blended on a cab that they believe sounds "good". I love these. I don't want to spend hours trying every combination of mic position.

I don't know why they don't also provide a list of amps that they think work well with the cab... and potentially even group them like that.

You could argue that which amp pairs best is subjective (and of course it is), but so is a mix of mics. At least it's a starting point. Most of the time I'm just trying to get in the ballpark.

I think the next IR maker to put some real thought into coming up with a set of mixed IRs specifically tailored to a collection of amps would do quite well.

I know that's all I would buy from here on.
 
AxeFxSend really make my studio sessions more oriented on playing and less on searching for the "best irs " ...
You can find few really good irs and maybe make some speedy mix with CabLab THEN play !!
Next day with fresh ears throw in the trash few mixes and stay with the
1 or 2 REALLY good .... Bammmmm .... Done .
Best tool to enhance the Fas experience IMHO
 
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