IRs for amp-in-the-room / far field (through Studio Monitors)

This is basically what I'm talking about! Would love to try out your IR.

I'm working on it, will be ready eventually! Just had another IR capture session last night actually. Editing time!

That's essentially the problem of this technique. Capturing a signal like this requires a mic and all mics have characteristics and need to be positioned somewhere so it will not re-create a guitar speaker. You know... good IR's aren't "muddy, phasey or ice-picky". ;)

Of course, it is impossible to use IRs to make your monitors emulate speaker directivity. IMO this doesn’t really matter, because with real cabinets, directivity is also the culprit for “muddy” or “ice-picky” tone, even when using the best guitar speakers. I don’t like hearing my real cab 90 degrees off axis, or with my head directly in front. So you are right, I am just describing good IRs - how annoying would it be if you had to position your studio monitors 15 degrees off axis in order to sound good!


Good FF IRs sound significantly different to good NF IRs though, and personally I find them more inspiring to play through because they feel more familiar. Of course NF IRs sound great too - its all about context :)


I don't think he's necessarily aiming to do the whole guitar speaker recreation thing that was popular on Fractal years ago. He doesn't use long lengths for his captures either but quite the opposite going for just 20ms I believe. Not sure if you've ever checked out antcarrier's recordings he's posted, but as long as I've been around these forums he's been using far-field captures of his own making and he's got a really great smokey jazz sound going on top of being an outstanding player. It's quite unconventional to what you do Mikko or even myself, but I can't deny he's got something pretty cool going on

Thanks a lot man! You are right, I only use 1024 point IRs :)


Close mic'd IRs sound very different than listening to a cab at a distance. For this very reason we have scheduled some studio time for a "Far Field IR Pack". We're going to try a variety of techniques to try and capture some far-field IRs. Technically you need a large space where the reflections occur after the IR has finished, like an airplane hanger or something but I've got some ideas on how to do it in a studio.

I am very interested to hear what you come up with! I had a feeling that you might be experimenting with FF IRs when you included the ‘floor reflections’ parameter in the AF3 (I'll get one one day).
I wish I had a aeroplane hanger...
 
Far-Field IR pack sounds awesome, insta buy for sure. For recording, can't you do this in some sort of Anechoic Chamber (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anechoic_chamber) instead of racing the reflection? I really know nothing about this, honest question.

I guess the problem is, when I'm playing with monitors, they're pointed right at my face. So, it's like I'm pointing the cab at my face. I realize now that I could probably move my monitors to be closer to my feet, and it would probably get me closer to the sound I'm looking for.

But why can't an IR do this for me? Is there not an IR where the mic is placed 2-3 feet away from the cab (ear level)? That's a far-field IR right? I feel like that + maybe the room settings would be exactly what I'm looking for. Or maybe I'm just overthinking it and I can do it via EQ.

FF IRs are normally captured using a technique called a ground plane measurement. This enables an IR to be captured free of room reflections in a large enough space. This method is even more anechoic than an anechoic chamber, because anechoic chambers still reflect low frequencies. Not to mention, anechoic chambers are hard to come by.

FF and NF IRs are too different to match them with EQ in my experience.
 
Cooper Carter devoted a whole segmment in his new training course for the Axe Fx III to recreating the “amp in the room” sound. He used his Mission Gemini powered wedges to get his tone, might be worth investigating if achieving that sound is very important to you. That is until Cliff gets his new IRs out there.
 
I need an IR that allows me to open up my Sony MDR-V6's, lay them on my desk, and play, and I want it to sound like Clark Kent doing his best rendition of Pete Townshend standing in front of a 27 foot high wall of amps, in Whembley Stadium.....(noteworthy opening act, 3 Canadians playing Journey, Toto, Rush, Shania Twain, Sheriff, Bryan Adams, and Tom Cochran).

Can this be done, with a 10-band MXR graphic EQ, and a Ham Sandwich?


Yes or No?
 
Cooper Carter devoted a whole segmment in his new training course for the Axe Fx III to recreating the “amp in the room” sound. He used his Mission Gemini powered wedges to get his tone, might be worth investigating if achieving that sound is very important to you. That is until Cliff gets his new IRs out there.
I don't really want to open this can of worms (again), but since you're a newer forum member you might not have seen some of those threads. ;)

As has been discussed, while you can definitely get great tones from FRFR (I definitely do!) the amp in the room (which should really be called "cab in the room") sound can never really be achieved.

This is because with the cab in the room, your ears are hearing the sound of the guitar speaker(s) and reflections in the room, and how you hear it is very dependent on your position relative to the speakers.

With FRFR, you are hearing the speaker, up close through a microphone and a mic preamp, all of which color the sound you hear. You are then playing that back through FRFR speakers, which are much less dependant on relative position to the speaker.

However, this is exactly how you hear all your favorite recorded guitar tones... Personally, I found it very liberating once I wrapped my head around that.
 
What I found significantly improved the amp in the room feel was to add a single CLR wedge on the floor to my setup that already has two 3-way Event monitors at head level on iso stands. The wedge provides a significant low-mid thump that you can feel in your gut when playing that is very reminiscent of a guitar cab, but still is FRFR so it still will provide different feels for different cabs. When I turn it off vs on when listening to my Event monitors I can really tell how much it is adding to the sound and feel. I feel the monitors high end is better reproduced and they also provide the great stereo imaging that is crucial as well. Also, I found that natural sounding feedback between the guitar and wedge is happening and much easier to create / control which is a plus.
 
That's too bad. A little volume really helps with amp in the room feel and feedback. Hopefully the far field IRs will help.
 
That's essentially the problem of this technique. Capturing a signal like this requires a mic and all mics have characteristics and need to be positioned somewhere so it will not re-create a guitar speaker. You know... good IR's aren't "muddy, phasey or ice-picky". ;)
Calibrated measurement microphones? Are Class/Type 1 microphones not good enough?
Close mic'd IRs sound very different than listening to a cab at a distance. For this very reason we have scheduled some studio time for a "Far Field IR Pack". We're going to try a variety of techniques to try and capture some far-field IRs. Technically you need a large space where the reflections occur after the IR has finished, like an airplane hanger or something but I've got some ideas on how to do it in a studio.
Windowed IR for HF crossed-over with nearfield measurement for LF? Or some other trick? ;)
Looking forward to it!!
it'll be the first airplane hanger built in a studio ever :O

but in seriousness, can an IR even produce the "far-field" thing people want? they all want "amp in the room" right? isn't that way more time than an IR can hold/produce?

i feel like people want it to sound like the sound is coming from the back of the speaker, from a speaker that's designed to give sound only from the front and disperse it 90 degrees to an audience over 30+ feet away.

that said, i don't know much about IRs honestly. i pick what sounds good and stick with them. definitely down to learn.
The "far-field" thing only takes a 20 ms IR.

If you want to learn about it, perhaps this recent thread from another forum will help. Skip the other stuff, read Jay Mitchell's posts:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...ference-between-200-500-low-high-etc.2015600/
 
I know the feel of standing in a room with a loud amp. Can be pretty overwhelming. But I doubt it would work thru the PA and on recordings. The sound you hear playing an amp loud in a room has nothing to do with well recorded guitar sounds.
 
Calibrated measurement microphones?
I have one right next to me that I use for measuring my rooms just to be safe. It's a cheap Behringer mic though so I'm not sure if there are better options but at least this one is very sensitive to where it is positioned. If I turn the angle up or down or to the side it'll sound completely different.
 
Close mic'd IRs sound very different than listening to a cab at a distance. For this very reason we have scheduled some studio time for a "Far Field IR Pack". We're going to try a variety of techniques to try and capture some far-field IRs. Technically you need a large space where the reflections occur after the IR has finished, like an airplane hanger or something but I've got some ideas on how to do it in a studio.

Hey Cliff

How did this go just curious were you happy w the results you were able to achieve from the studio time ?

Can you give any update ?
 
Close mic'd IRs sound very different than listening to a cab at a distance. For this very reason we have scheduled some studio time for a "Far Field IR Pack". We're going to try a variety of techniques to try and capture some far-field IRs. Technically you need a large space where the reflections occur after the IR has finished, like an airplane hanger or something but I've got some ideas on how to do it in a studio.

https://www.soundonsound.com/music-business/waterfront-studios-hudson-ny

sf_mar_01-neZfumqdl20ckicT1rCClERc7SCO1qAb.jpg


Not as big as the drum room in their old Hoboken (old American Can building) location, but still impressive.

I looked up churches for sale on Loop Net, some are cheaper than a Dumble!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top Bottom