Intonation gone sharp - old strings or up-bowing neck?

Pelikanen

Pelikanen

Inspired
Checked the intonation on my new Ibanez Iron Label RGIB6 baritone. The intonation had gone sharp on all strings which to me indicates that the neck has moved and gotten too much relief/up-bow. I tightened the truss rod maybe four times, all in all it might have been 1/2 a turn. I checked the intonation between every turn and didn't wait very long before turning again. Now the intonation is pretty much back to where it was (not quite, still a bit sharp) but the feel of the strings are a bit tighter and buzzier, like the action got lower (I know, it's probably too much relief now).

Then again, strings are a tad old/dead. I know that old strings don't intonate as well but I'm not sure if they are more prone to go sharp or flat.

Would it have been better to change strings first and then check the neck/intonation?

Also, I've heard conflicting information on how long to wait between truss rod adjustments, some say 15-20 minutes, some say leave it overnight, the tech I've gone to has said the changes are pretty immediate.
 
Less neck relief implies:

more tension on the strings (neck becames shorter),
More odds of buzzing
Less sustain
Less output
Much more difficult to pinch armonics

I suggest checking out the everyone bridge, got two guitars with that bridge and are fantastic (perfect intonation without deviations during the strings life).
 
I would check the bridge. If the neck doesn't look bowed, then I would adjust the bridge. I live up north and it gets cold and dry so I have to adjust the necks of my guitars all the time, and to me, you don't have to wait after adjusting the truss rod. My 2 cents.
 
I would suggest measuring relief and action before making any adjustments to the guitar. How do you know that a brand new guitar was properly intonated leaving the factory? One would hope it would be, but that is not always the case. For that matter how do you know the relief and action were properly set?

If taking measurements reveals too much fore bow or a back bow, adjust the relief. If string action is too high or low, adjust the bridge height. Then check your intonation. If your intonation still off with the relief and action you want, simply adjust your intonation.

The order of adjustments is important: first relief, then string height, finally intonation.

You should use new strings when checking/setting intonation, relief, and action.

When setting relief, get the relief where you want it (again measure, don’t guess or eyeball) then re-measure the relief after about 24 hours and fine tune the adjustment if necessary.
 
juanpmoran said:
Less neck relief implies:

more tension on the strings (neck becames shorter),
More odds of buzzing
Less sustain
Less output
Much more difficult to pinch armonics

I suggest checking out the everyone bridge, got two guitars with that bridge and are fantastic (perfect intonation without deviations during the strings life).
Click to expand...
Assuming the same gauge string, tuned to the same pitch, a shorter neck means less tension, it is well documented that a guitar with a 24.75” scale has lower string tension than a guitar with a 25.5” scale: https://hazeguitars.com/blog/scale-length-affects-feel-playability-and-tone. String gauge and pitch effect string tension.

As for relief affecting sustain and output, if the action is not properly adjusted in conjunction with relief adjustments this could be true. If adjusting relief impacts your sustain or output, then your action is not properly set for that relief: https://hazeguitars.com/blog/a-truss-rod-is-not-for-adjusting-action.

As for relief affecting pinch harmonics, again on a properly setup guitar this is a non-issue. Shortening/lengthening of the string by relief adjustment can slightly move the position of the pinch harmonic.

Less relief causing more string buzz would also indicate an improperly setup guitar. You need to adjust relief (neck bow) and action (string height) in tandem. If you adjust one, you most likely need to adjust the other.

Less neck relief implies less fore bow of the neck. Less neck relief requires higher action due to the way a string vibrates:


Relief is used to compensate for the way a string vibrates, thus allowing lower action to be achieved without adding fret buzz. In an improperly setup guitar, it is fret contact due to improper relief and action settings which would be the cause of fret buzz, lower sustain, lower output, and choked harmonics/pinch harmonics.

We did not even delve into the impact of fret jobs, and worn/loose frets. That is a whole other facet. But since OP says this is a new guitar, it hopefully is not an issue.
 
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Capt Nasty said:
I would suggest measuring relief and action before making any adjustments to the guitar. How do you know that a brand new guitar was properly intonated leaving the factory? One would hope it would be, but that is not always the case. For that matter how do you know the relief and action were properly set?

If taking measurements reveals too much fore bow or a back bow, adjust the relief. If string action is too high or low, adjust the bridge height. Then check your intonation. If your intonation still off with the relief and action you want, simply adjust your intonation.

The order of adjustments is important: first relief, then string height, finally intonation.

You should use new strings when checking/setting intonation, relief, and action.

When setting relief, get the relief where you want it (again measure, don’t guess or eyeball) then re-measure the relief after about 24 hours and fine tune the adjustment if necessary.
Click to expand...

I didn't measure it bit if felt like the action had become higher so I checked intonation and all strings were sharp which to me indicates that there's more travel for each string from open to fretted that results in sharp intonation. I had the guitar PLEKed shortly after purchase and I went back with it to the shop around 2 weeks ago and had it readjusted (truss rod and intonation). My questions were really more like theories though - "shouldn't I theoretically get the intonation back by tightening the truss rod?" But I also have to pose the question along the lines of "is it sharp because of old strings?/could the saddles somehow have moved over time?".
 
My point is that to you need to determine why this happened. If you do not have a measurement indicating your relief is off or your action is high, you are making an assumtion as to why something changed.

If you start off with a bad assumption, then make adjustments based on that bad assumption, you can make a mess out of your guitar setup.

If relief caused your shift in intonation then theoretically speaking, if you restored the guitar to the same exact relief then yes it should restore intonation.

If your bridges or saddles shifted, if your action was altered then theoretically no, setting relief would not restore intonation because you are not adjusting what caused the change you are trying to correct.

You picked up your guitar, you felt like the action was higher and you went straight to altering relief. You need to verify what you felt.

Check out the link I included in my third post about not using the truss rod to adjust action.
 
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Change your strings. Intonation also changes as the strings get older and worn so you may have to readjust over time and start all over when you change strings. It will change slightly as well with humidity and normal expansion and contraction of wood but the strings is the biggest factor.

Just recently a guy dropped off a guitar for routine service-hadn't changed strings since I last changed it, and the intonation was HORRIBLE.

When I had done it for him before, it was SPOT on. I replaced his strings and it was again, spot on.

Moral of the story - change your strings
 
jon said:
Change your strings. Intonation also changes as the strings get older and worn so you may have to readjust over time and start all over when you change strings. It will change slightly as well with humidity and normal expansion and contraction of wood but the strings is the biggest factor.

Just recently a guy dropped off a guitar for routine service-hadn't changed strings since I last changed it, and the intonation was HORRIBLE.

When I had done it for him before, it was SPOT on. I replaced his strings and it was again, spot on.

Moral of the story - change your strings
Click to expand...
OP said he had taken it to a tech for intonation and relief adjutment 2 weeks ago. I don’t think his strings would get played out that badly in two weeks.
Pelikanen said:
I had the guitar PLEKed shortly after purchase and I went back with it to the shop around 2 weeks ago and had it readjusted (truss rod and intonation).
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He also indicated his question is more about the theory behind it
Pelikanen said:
My questions were really more like theories though - "shouldn't I theoretically get the intonation back by tightening the truss rod?" But I also have to pose the question along the lines of "is it sharp because of old strings?/could the saddles somehow have moved over time?"
Click to expand...
 
Capt Nasty said:
OP said he had taken it to a tech for intonation and relief adjutment 2 weeks ago. I don’t think his strings would get played out that badly in two weeks.
Click to expand...

Pelikanen said:
Then again, strings are a tad old/dead. I know that old strings don't intonate as well but I'm not sure if they are more prone to go sharp or flat.
Click to expand...

From my experience, trying to set intonation on old strings is a lesson in futility. You're lucky if you get it and then it goes out again, similar to what the OP posted. You will end up looking all over for the solution when it's simply a string change that was needed. Been there, done that many times.

I'd highly recommend another tech for setup, intonation etc if he does it on dead strings. Just my $0.02
 
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Capt Nasty said:
Assuming the same gauge string, tuned to the same pitch, a shorter neck means less tension, it is well documented that a guitar with a 24.75” scale has lower string tension than a guitar with a 25.5” scale: https://hazeguitars.com/blog/scale-length-affects-feel-playability-and-tone. String gauge and pitch effect string tension.

As for relief affecting sustain and output, if the action is not properly adjusted in conjunction with relief adjustments this could be true. If adjusting relief impacts your sustain or output, then your action is not properly set for that relief: https://hazeguitars.com/blog/a-truss-rod-is-not-for-adjusting-action.

As for relief affecting pinch harmonics, again on a properly setup guitar this is a non-issue. Shortening/lengthening of the string by relief adjustment can slightly move the position of the pinch harmonic.

Less relief causing more string buzz would also indicate an improperly setup guitar. You need to adjust relief (neck bow) and action (string height) in tandem. If you adjust one, you most likely need to adjust the other.

Less neck relief implies less fore bow of the neck. Less neck relief requires higher action due to the way a string vibrates:


Relief is used to compensate for the way a string vibrates, thus allowing lower action to be achieved without adding fret buzz. In an improperly setup guitar, it is fret contact due to improper relief and action settings which would be the cause of fret buzz, lower sustain, lower output, and choked harmonics/pinch harmonics.

We did not even delve into the impact of fret jobs, and worn/loose frets. That is a whole other facet. But since OP says this is a new guitar, it hopefully is not an issue.
Click to expand...


It seems you enjoy telling other people what to do and what is right or wrong, nicely done
 
FWIW, I check the intonation every time I change strings and after fully stretching them. I’ve seen strings that were the same brand, same sku, and same gauge vary slightly in tolerances. A 10 gauge set from three different brands may vary from each other as well.
 
jon said:
Change your strings. Intonation also changes as the strings get older and worn so you may have to readjust over time and start all over when you change strings. It will change slightly as well with humidity and normal expansion and contraction of wood but the strings is the biggest factor.

Just recently a guy dropped off a guitar for routine service-hadn't changed strings since I last changed it, and the intonation was HORRIBLE.

When I had done it for him before, it was SPOT on. I replaced his strings and it was again, spot on.

Moral of the story - change your strings
Click to expand...

Right. Do you remember if the intonation was sharp or flat? Assuming that the relief was still correct.
 
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