Input Trim Value = Input Trim Setting = Scene Controller % Value ..... FULL TABLE ENCLOSED

ben ifin

ben ifin

Experienced
Hi all !

Given all the help others gave me on this and how useful it was, I made a TABLE of the Input Trim Actual Real Value with its Corresponding Input Trim Setting and its Corresponding Scene Controller % Value.

I ask a lot of questions so I thought I would give back a bit :)

Hope this is helpful for others

All the best,
Ben

Input Trim " Actual Real Value "Input Trim Setting in PatchScene Controller % Value in Patch
MINUS 20 DB0.1000.00%
MINUS 19 DB0.1122.50%
MINUS 18 DB0.1265.00%
MINUS 17 DB0.1417.50%
MINUS 16 DB0.15810.00%
MINUS 15 DB0.17812.50%
MINUS 14 DB0.19915.00%
MINUS 13 DB0.22417.50%
MINUS 12 DB0.25120.00%
MINUS 11 DB0.28222.50%
MINUS 10 DB0.31625.00%
MINUS 09 DB0.35527.50%
MINUS 08 DB0.39830.00%
MINUS 07 DB0.44632.50%
MINUS 06 DB0.50135.00%
MINUS 05 DB0.56237.50%
MINUS 04 DB0.63140.00%
MINUS 03 DB0.70742.50%
MINUS 02 DB0.79445.00%
MINUS 01 DB0.89147.50%
ZERO 00 DB1.00050.00%
PLUS 01 DB1.12252.50%
PLUS 02 DB1.25955.00%
PLUS 03 DB1.41257.50%
PLUS 04 DB1.58560.00%
PLUS 05 DB1.77862.50%
PLUS 06 DB1.99565.00%
PLUS 07 DB2.23867.50%
PLUS 08 DB2.51270.00%
PLUS 09 DB2.81872.50%
PLUS 10 DB3.16275.00%
PLUS 11 DB3.54877.50%
PLUS 12 DB3.98180.00%
PLUS 13 DB4.46782.50%
PLUS 14 DB5.01185.00%
PLUS 15 DB5.62387.50%
PLUS 16 DB6.31090.00%
PLUS 17 DB7.07992.50%
PLUS 18 DB7.94395.00%
PLUS 19 DB8.91397.50%
PLUS 20 DB10.000100.00%
 
In other words, how about Fractal just also show the decibel value at least in Axe-Edit? There's a lot of software that lets you toggle between what sort of values to show so this could be e.g. right click on the value to select "show as dB" or "show as percentage".

Alternatively if the percentage is weird for users, just change it to show dB values.
 
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Interesting. I never think of input trim as "dB". Preamps and power amps saturate and compress, so if I want a dB change, I do it after the amp.
I don't even think of it numerically -- I use it by ear to change the tone or response of an amp under my fingers.
 
laxu said:
In other words, how about Fractal just also show the decibel value at least in Axe-Edit? There's a lot of software that lets you toggle between what sort of values to show so this could be e.g. right click on the value to select "show as dB" or "show as percentage".

Alternatively if the percentage is weird for users, just change it to show dB values.
Click to expand...
It was changed to dB several firmware versions ago, but people didn't like it, so it was changed back to linear.
 
mr_fender said:
It was changed to dB several firmware versions ago, but people didn't like it, so it was changed back to linear.
Click to expand...

What ??? I did not know that :( Why on earth would users not want to know the db value instead of an opaque numeric value (?) ..... makes no sense at all to me ?!?!? .... as can be seen from the Table above, the "Input Trim Setting Numbers" are not linear but rather logarithmic in their effect ... hence the lack of clarity / lack of ease of use.

To my simple mind, a good rule of thumb is, with all other things being equal between 2 options for the singular decision ..... always go the "ease of use" path vs "less ease of use" path.

Well ..... that's my 2c worth :)

Ben
 
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The trim value is not really opaque at all. It's a linear signal level multiplier. 0.25 = a quarter of the signal, 0.5 = half the signal, 1 = unity gain, 2 = twice the signal, 10 = ten times the signal, and so on. Using dB instead doesn't really make things any more clear when it's before the amp and the end tonal result of the adjustment will vary wildly based on the amp model you're using. Most folks have no clue how many dB any given change they make with their guitar volume or a drive pedal level or whatever actually gives them. They only know it's more or less signal and just tweak things by ear.
 
mr_fender said:
The trim value is not really opaque at all. It's a linear signal level multiplier. 0.25 = a quarter of the signal, 0.5 = half the signal, 1 = unity gain, 2 = twice the signal, 10 = ten times the signal, and so on. Using dB instead doesn't really make things any more clear when it's before the amp and the end tonal result of the adjustment will vary wildly based on the amp model you're using. Most folks have no clue how many dB any given change they make with their guitar volume or a drive pedal level or whatever actually gives them. They only know it's more or less signal and just tweak things by ear.
Click to expand...

Hey. Seem's like I'm flogging a "dead horse here" :) but I'll have one last go :)

Its not a "linear signal level multiplier" ...... just look at Column 2 of the Table Above .... its Numerically Logarithmic .... its only linear in the Scene Controller % Selector Setting.

If you are playing and think

=> " I wonder how it would sound if I cut the Input by -3db " ... the answer is setting the I/Trim to 0.707 ?!
=> " no, I think -5db will do the trick " ... that's an I/T Setting of 0.562 ?!
=> " actually I want to grunt it up so I'll hit the front end with an extra 7db "... thats an I/T Setting of 2.238 ?!
=> " no, it really needs an extra 12 db " ..... thats an I/T Setting of 3.981 ?!

...... and so on.

I.M.H.O. .... there's absolutely nothing at all intuitive about the I/Trim Numeric up/down values ...... sorry :)

And again .... I'm not always convinced by the whole "tweak things by ear" way .... of course if it sounds good it is good but if db values really don't makes things "more clear" .......

=> why do the Compressors show Gain Reduction in db's ?
=> why do the Graphic and Para's adjust the different Freq's you select by db's ?
=> why does the Input Boost in the Amp Block have the Boost Level in db's ?
=> why is the Speaker Compression "impact" shown in db's ?
=> why are the Master Levels and the Scene Levels all in db's ?
=> why are the Cab Block "slopes" in db's ?
=> why is the Cab Preamp Tone block all in db's ?

.... there are many more examples

ALL of these above [and other] settings could also be left to "tweaking by ear" with just Numeric up/down values ....but I think we'd all agree that would be .... again i.m.h.o .... "very not good" :)

Please understand .... I don't mean any offence at all by any of this to you or anyone :)

I just think this is a simple piece of "low hanging fruit" that could be very easily "fixed" and would make tweaking easier and quicker and much more naturally intuitive.

Peace to all .... genuinely :)

I'll leave this topic alone now.

Hopefully some may find the above table useful to use ... if not ... nothing lost :)

All the best,
Ben
 
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ben ifin said:
I just think this is a simple piece of "low hanging fruit" that could be very easily "fixed" and would make tweaking easier and quicker and much more naturally intuitive.
Click to expand...
As someone who has been asking for a lot of individual low hanging fruits in one of my wishlist threads...this is not an area where I have high expectations from Fractal.

I feel like the current scale is pretty weird because most controls in the amp block are 0-10 with centerpoint at 5 but input trim is...0.1 to 10.0 with a centerpoint at 1.0? If anything it should be a 0.1-10 scale where 5.0 is the "no effect" if it were to behave like the rest of the amp controls. Yes I am sure it was a lot easier to program when you don't need to convert the scale to apply the value.

This is the kind of simple stuff where having the behavior that most makes sense to the end user can help. All I know is that the current scale is unintuitive, but at the same time I am not sure if a decibel scale works better either.
 
Yeah, it is a bit of a one off. That was the reason it was changed to dB before, to make it more like other level controls. For whatever reason, people complained or were confused by it, so it was changed back. You have to understand Fractal's potential frustration with stuff like this too. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Either way works fine for me.
 
laxu said:
As someone who has been asking for a lot of individual low hanging fruits in one of my wishlist threads...this is not an area where I have high expectations from Fractal.

I feel like the current scale is pretty weird because most controls in the amp block are 0-10 with centerpoint at 5 but input trim is...0.1 to 10.0 with a centerpoint at 1.0? If anything it should be a 0.1-10 scale where 5.0 is the "no effect" if it were to behave like the rest of the amp controls. Yes I am sure it was a lot easier to program when you don't need to convert the scale to apply the value.

This is the kind of simple stuff where having the behavior that most makes sense to the end user can help. All I know is that the current scale is unintuitive, but at the same time I am not sure if a decibel scale works better either.
Click to expand...
It would be trivial to change it to 0-10 but I don't agree that that would be clearer. 5.0 doesn't mean "no effect". The simplest thing would be a switch: Lo / Hi but we gave people the option to fine-tune the trim and, as demonstrated earlier, some people like that and use it.
 
I'm used to 0.5 / 1.0 meaning lo / hi - so change, or not would be fine for me as long as I can equate what specifically maps to lo / hi.

I may be somewhat ignorant of the mechanics but I have difficulty using a Db scale anywhere before a distorted amp (or drive) due to the compression associated with gain that supresses volume somewhat unpredictably to me. My attention to Db scale tends to start at the amp block's level knob thru to preset output for managing overall volume, or, at any given fx' output to keep the effect level within a patch.
 
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FractalAudio said:
The simplest thing would be a switch: Lo / Hi but we gave people the option to fine-tune the trim and, as demonstrated earlier, some people like that and use it.
Click to expand...

I love that the "Input Trim" is variable; it's incredibly useful and is one of my most used controls. On some presets I map it to an expression pedal as it controls/drives the front end of an amp in a way that using the guitar volume control doesn't quite duplicate.
 
Stratoblaster said:
I love that the "Input Trim" is variable; it's incredibly useful and is one of my most used controls. On some presets I map it to an expression pedal as it controls/drives the front end of an amp in a way that using the guitar volume control doesn't quite duplicate.
Click to expand...
+1 - scale used on this particular control does not matter so much to me, but I wouldn't want to see it changed to a switch since I've also used it as a gain control that preserves tone, in addition to hi / lo input.
 
I find that having the "Input Trim" value reflecting a scaling factor to be more intuitive overall, but the dB table provided by @ben ifin is indeed useful, thanks....!

I only pay attention to the actual value when I configure an expression pedal/controller to reflect a range +/- that I like to vary the input level to the amp, otherwise I just tweak it to where it sounds/feels right for what I'm looking for.
 
Thank you for taking the time to put this chart together. This is how I approach controls that I may find 'counterintuitive', convert them to a different type of measurement that makes more sense to me. I actually prefer the Input Trim as it is but I approach it more as a gain control rather than a volume control. Yes, it does affect volume but it has more impact on the gain which is why I'll typically use it.

ben ifin said:
Why on earth would users not want to know the db value instead of an opaque numeric value (?) ..... makes no sense at all to me ?!?!?
Click to expand...
This is the core reason why 'discussions' get out of hand. People have certain preferences and can't understand how anyone doesn't feel the same or why anyone would want something different. Not everyone wants, prefers or likes the same thing, regardless of how much sense it makes or how logical it is to us.
 
JoKeR III said:
Thank you for taking the time to put this chart together. This is how I approach controls that I may find 'counterintuitive', convert them to a different type of measurement that makes more sense to me. I actually prefer the Input Trim as it is but I approach it more as a gain control rather than a volume control. Yes, it does affect volume but it has more impact on the gain which is why I'll typically use it.


This is the core reason why 'discussions' get out of hand. People have certain preferences and can't understand how anyone doesn't feel the same or why anyone would want something different. Not everyone wants, prefers or likes the same thing, regardless of how much sense it makes or how logical it is to us.
Click to expand...

Hi JoKeR III !

^^^ this is a really fair and accurate point and I think I suffer from this to a "not-so-ideal" degree from time-to-time :)

All the best,
Ben
 
ben ifin said:
Hi JoKeR III !

^^^ this is a really fair and accurate point and I think I suffer from this to a "not-so-ideal" degree from time-to-time :)

All the best,
Ben
Click to expand...
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem. :p

We all do, convictions and methods can be so hard-wired or engrained that it seems like simple common sense to us. It's something I really have to be intentional to remember when there's something I think is "ideal"- not always successful though. It's mind-boggling to consider how many potential perspectives there can be on a single subject, let alone a single feature of a device.
 
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