In Praise of the Virtual Capo ***FW 5.02b1***

Thanks for taking the time to do this! Where did you have the tracking paramater?
It's set at 3.0

Haha! You essentially punked yourself.
Ugh. It's Punk'd. Sheesh. And you call yourself a millennial. (full disclosure: I have no idea what you call yourself lol)
Yeah, that's what happened. :tearsofjoy:
Yep. You can probably find my threads/posts from before the Axe Fx III's Virtual Capo was improved. Again; one of the most outspoken critics turned most ardent fanboi. :hearteyes:
 
Yep. You can probably find my threads/posts from before the Axe Fx III's Virtual Capo was improved. Again; one of the most outspoken critics turned most ardent fanboi. :hearteyes:
Oh, you're referring to yourself. Ok. My misunderstanding. I thought you were referring to people who were giving you shit.
 
@Admin M@ I don't know if you've happened on this thread yet but this is worth calling out. The VC is flat out WAY better in 5.0b. So whatever magic happened, thank you and the team!

I wasn't even bothered about it but I just spent another half hour playing around and I had so much fun - the old lag/tracking issues just aren't there now :eek: . Went from a feature in the pitch block I never thought about much to something I'll absolutely use.
 
After some deliberation about whether or not to update to 5.0b with a gig coming up this week, I decided to back up my presets and go for it. Other than the one bug I found in the virtual capo described here (which I'm now understanding is a known issue), I was pleasantly surprised to find that it works better and faster than in 4.1. I spent some time today taking latency measurements and going between 4.1 and 5.0b just to be sure and the results are in: the VC in 5.0 actually is better, even if there was no dedicated and focused improvement to the block. I can only assume some of the other under the hood changes in this update affected the workings of the VC (maybe the Pitch block as a whole; I didn't test anything else because I don't use anything else).

Equipment used for the test:
  • Variax JTV-59 using magnetic pups
  • Shure Beta 58
  • Motu M4 Interface
  • 2018 Mac Mini running Logic Pro X
  • HX Stomp running FW 3.1
  • FM3 running 4.1 and 5.0b

Methods:
  1. Plugged the Beta 58 into channel 1 of the M4.
  2. Plugged the guitar modelers' output into input 2 of the M4
  3. Recorded tracks simultaneously by tapping the mic to a string near the bridge of the guitar between 5 and 10 times at 1 second intervals so the mic sound was recorded at the same time the magnetic pickups would pick up the sound.
  4. Zoom in on WAV files to compare start of sound (mic signal) with the various modelers' & configurations' latency-delayed sound.
  5. Control: plugged the guitar straight into input 2 and performed step 3 above, resulting in a 0ms latency difference of the measured signals.
  6. Resolution: whole number latency in ms (in other words, you won't see 2.345ms latency).
  7. Precision: Measurements are approximate with a margin of error of 1-2ms; when you zoom super far in to a WAV graphic, it can be difficult to determine precisely where the signal actually starts, but you can get amazingly close.
  8. Note: I only tested pitch shifting by 1/2 step or 1 semitone.

Results:
  • HX Stomp FW 3.1 blank preset: 2ms
  • HX Stomp FW 3.1 Poly Capo: 20ms
  • FAS FM3 FW 4.1 blank preset: 3ms
  • FAS FM3 FW 4.1 VC-Only Preset: 20-80ms, occasional double/repeated notes
  • FAS FM3 FW 4.1 VC in full preset: 20-65ms
  • FAS FM3 FW 5.0b blank preset: 3ms
  • FAS FM3 FW 5.0b VC-only preset: 20ms
  • FAS FM3 FW 5.0b VC in full preset: 20ms
  • Digitech Drop: 20ms
  • Variax Electric model 1/2 down: 18ms
  • Variax acoustic model 1/2 down: 24ms

Discussion:
I'm obsessed with latency; I'm very sensitive to it. But I'm very pleased with how well the VC works in 5.0b. I conducted similar tests a while ago with the Axe Fx III, Drop Pedal, HX Stomp, and the Variax. This was before I had my FM3 (video was recorded in March of last year; needs an update). I had also tested the HX's Poly Pitch, not the Poly Capo. I can't find exactly what the difference in terms of algorithm, if any, but there are fewer/different parameters in the Poly Capo.

My final analysis is that the current FM3 Virtual Capo is now up there among the best. It's much more stable than it was before. Cleans still sound a little wonky and warbly when pitch-shifted, but definitely still usable in a full band context (of if you wanna jam to a recording that's tuned down from standard. I'm very excited to get together with the band this weeks and see if it maintains the stability and consistency that it exhibited during my tests and jamming. I no longer feel the need to go back to my Axe Fx III & FC6 setup.

I know this has become a contentious topic on these and other forums, and I know the old-school people eschew tech like this and just bring extra guitars, tune down, or transpose the song to work in their current tuning, but at least this gives us one more option. I've been gigging the VC in 4.1 for quite a while so I've learned to work with its quirks. This improved stability will make using it much more relaxing.

All this to say: Even though the FM3 didn't receive the Axe Fx III/FM9's improved Pitch Block update, the Virtual Capo is, in fact, better; if only incrementally, it's still better than it was. I look forward to the full 5.0 release and whatever comes next!
So, is latency the issue with the Virtual Capo (apparently pre-5.0b) or is it that it sounds like shit? I thought the complaint was that it sounded like shit with artifacts, etc.
 
I just had a blast using Firmware 5.0 Virtual Capo!

It is definitely much better than FW 4.1.

I had a Digitech Drop, it is good, but introduced a lot of noise in the signal, because it can't be used with batteries.

And to be honest, now I like FM3 VC better.

I recorded a sample, the first part using -2 Shift, the second part -1 Shift, I could not feel any latency.

 
After updating to beta 5 I also tried the virtual capo not expecting any improvement and I felt like it was now on par with my digitech drop pedal. It had been quite some time since I last tried it and was thinking "did they improve this somehow from last time used it?" From the latency measurements it looks like I wasn't imagining it.
 
That's really what I found out last week when the beta hit and the "pitch block" was missing from the release notes. I said I'd give it a try & found out that, as far as latency was concerned, there was a dramatic improvement (at least as far as I knew it worked in Release 4):

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fm3-firmware-version-5-00-beta-1.180079/post-2200078

As far as the "tracking"/accuracy, my ears still say the Helix and The Drop are slightly better as far as tone but the FM3's now able to do the job too.
 
That's really what I found out last week when the beta hit and the "pitch block" was missing from the release notes. I said I'd give it a try & found out that, as far as latency was concerned, there was a dramatic improvement (at least as far as I knew it worked in Release 4):

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fm3-firmware-version-5-00-beta-1.180079/post-2200078

As far as the "tracking"/accuracy, my ears still say the Helix and The Drop are slightly better as far as tone but the FM3's now able to do the job too.
Hah, you called it first and we totally missed it. I read the first half of your post from the 5.0 thread initially and skimmed by the rest and totally missed the bottom.
 
Seriously??
Is this post actually for real? After DAYS of bitching, complaining, and berating Fractal Audio on this forum and other forums you actually have the audacity to post an "in praise of" thread here??
Have you suffered some sort of head injury? Maybe recently gained or lost access to important prescription medication?

W in TF
he wrote that before trying the new beta, that according to the release notes didnt state any improvements to the pitch block. It's not that weird to then assume there would be no changes. I think its cool he actually took his time to test this anyway, and share his results.
..and I'm curious if FAS will comment on this 'discovery'
 
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Seriously??
Is this post actually for real? After DAYS of bitching, complaining, and berating Fractal Audio on this forum and other forums you actually have the audacity to post an "in praise of" thread here??
Have you suffered some sort of head injury? Maybe recently gained or lost access to important prescription medication?

W in TF
With all due respect, did you even read my post? It doesn't take audacity to make a praise topic after expressing legitimate concerns with a feature, especially when that praise topic makes clear all objections to the previous version of the feature, objective data measuring the new/improved feature, and then discussing why the newest version is better. Again; there was no reason to assume the beta would have any impact on the VC since any previous update didn't and there was nothing about it in the release notes, so there was no reason to update and try it. I'm not one to update to a beta FW (especially of this size) days before a gig. As I mentioned, I just happened to stumble on this improvement; I didn't load it up and say, "Alright; let's see how good this VC is in this update." And, as I also mentioned, it was only because it was actually worse than before when I first went to the preset that uses it that I discovered it was, in fact, better (after I figured out the issue).

It's fine that you don't see my post for what it is, but it's pretty crummy of you to just come in here and be disrespectful to me. Let's try to be supportive of other members - we don't you need to perpetuate the reputation this forum has.

So, is latency the issue with the Virtual Capo (apparently pre-5.0b) or is it that it sounds like shit? I thought the complaint was that it sounded like shit with artifacts, etc.
I think many people had many different (or similar) complaints. There are definitely artifacts, particular with clean guitar, but my issue has always been latency - since before the Axe III got its Pitch Block update. Frankly, if you play overdriven/distorted guitar through it, you may never hear any artifacts at all. I only have one song where I use it on clean and it was pretty painful until the full band came in. We'll see how it is this week at rehearsal. I don't think, artifact-wise, it'll be much better, but the lower latency will make it better from the get-go.
 
So, is latency the issue with the Virtual Capo (apparently pre-5.0b) or is it that it sounds like shit? I thought the complaint was that it sounded like shit with artifacts, etc.
In my previous tests, you had to turn the Tracking all the way up (to 10 for instance) in order to get less tonal artifacts; the problem there was, when the Tracking was cranked to higher levels, the latency really made it unplayable.
 
Given the recent posts & the fact they locked the other VC thread yesterday, they'll (most likely) keep to themselves for the time being. Time will tell.
Yeah, I am a bit curious what they think of this. I'm sure they've read it, though. They locked the other one because it was more or less unproductive - but understandably so for those like me who were really hoping/expecting the VC to be updated this round and, who also like me, maybe hadn't updated to the latest FW and tried it out.

This thread, on the other hand, is saying good things about it and seems to resonate with a lot of people that noticed the same thing, not that they only allow positive comments in this forum, but it makes for more pleasant discussion. I just happened to objectively measure it. I suspect they might be looking at the code to see what might've created this happy little accident :)
 
Yeah, I am a bit curious what they think of this. I'm sure they've read it, though.
Well the topic got their attention (them and the other 99% of the forum by the looks of it lol); safe to say it got slightly irritating at times but the takeaway, as far as I was able to tell, is that there's a very passionate user-base of gigging musicians out there who love the FM3 product & want to keep on using it.
Off-topic, the amp modeling improvements are crazy good.. I can't stop playing.
 
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Well the topic got their attention (them and the other 99% of the forum by the looks of it lol); safe to say it slightly got irritating at times but the takeaway, as far as I was able to tell, is that there's a very passionate user-base of gigging musicians out there who love the FM3 product & want to keep on using it.
Off-topic, the amp modeling improvements are crazy good.. I can't stop playing.
You're spot on. And YES!! I didn't want to go to bed. I was tweaking presets and jamming WAY past my bedtime last night. Well done, FAS, all around on this update.
 
Just checked it out and yes, there is something significant better with VC now.
I didn't tried it after updating to 5.0B1 and with 4.1 the latency was really higher...
Now at the actual state it is really usefull for my cases.
 
Just checked it out and yes, there is something significant better with VC now.
I didn't tried it after updating to 5.0B1 and with 4.1 the latency was really higher...
Now at the actual state it is really usefull for my cases.
I'm so stoked that people keep reporting in with this :)
 
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